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Here’s to that daf ?
Brydo,
The SNP clearly think that they have the answer, and as you indicate, will no doubt stand on one matter only ie ‘ Independence’, which is the only hope they have of becoming the largest party in the Scottish Parliament?
Their record on just about everything else is open to severe criticism, and will hardly be a vote winner, so they are likely to push this on to the back burner!
However, theirs is a very risky strategy, as the other parties will focus heavily on the SNP ‘s shortcomings , such as in Education, in the Health Service, the especially the mishandling of the economy, the betrayal of the fishing industry ( there is a betrayal as they want to give the Scottish fishing grounds back to the EU under the Common Fisheries Policy, and a vote for the SNP will clearly mean a betrayal of Scottish fishermen ), as well as what Independence will actually mean to the ‘pound in their pocket’, where they will be hit particularly hard – the Latest LSE report shows that the average Scottish family will be £3000 pa worse off, and frankly, there is no way the majority of Scottish families not even in the urban power bases of the SNP can afford that – the cost message will be pushed hard by the other parties.
btw., a very substantial loss of Government income in Scotland should they vote for independence, or even before a vote is taken, is a fact ,not opinion!
Then there is the business angle where employers will highlight the potential loss of jobs due to the likely loss of the zero tariff trade to their biggest trading partner – the UK?
These facts are the reality here, although facts and plain simple truth seem to have taken a back seat, and one fact which the SNP continue to dispute is that they can hold a legal referendum without the UK Government’s permission – that message to the Scottish electorate is pure fantasy , and as the first question was about who is lying , then the answer is ‘ the SNP’.
I was rather harsh in suggesting that those thinking that independence was coming to Scotland any time soon were living in cloud cuckoo land. Mike 700 has done a very good job of outlining the problem the SNP face.
In a strange way I think another referendum would be a welcome distraction from covid. I have noticed a tendency for Scottish politicians to be named after food.
Mike I’m under no ellusion on the task we face in independence but I have a rather simple view on independence that is, no matter what we should be independent. People who say why be independent then join the EU miss the point. As things stand the English voters took Scotland out of the EU, as an independent country we would decide if we are in or out.
Brydo, your obsession with English voters isn’t healthy. London with a far greater population than Scotland also voted to remain in the EU, but I don’t hear them complaining about the outcome or demanding independence.
Wigwam once again you miss the point. London is not a country it’s a part of England.
As you know I have no English voter obsession but that doesn’t fit the narrative does it.
My friend I will not be replying to any of your future posts your anti everything main stream and pro everything left field is draining me and making my visits to the forum uncomfortable.
Brydo, I have to admit that because I can’t find a way to understand the Scotnat obsession with breaking up a Union of nations which has served us all well for over 300 years, is entirely my problem.
My ancestry is mixed – English, Scottish and Dutch. If anyone asks me my nationality, I’m British. I happen to have been born in Birmingham and I currently live on the English south coast but to me that’s just geography.
If you think that a Scottish government could run Scotland better than the UK government does, you may be right. An English government without the financial burden of the rest of the UK could certainly do better for the people who live in England but I don’t see a drive amongst the people here to throw of the shackles of the rest of the UK.
So your ambition makes no sense to me, that’s all . And it’s in my nature to make sense of stuff and not just take things at face value. I was taught to challenge and question. It’s how I learn.
If that makes me anti mainstream and left field then I’m happy with that.
i have said all along its a problem for the scots, their choice.
as someone who has worked in accounts or the army all my life i dont see how the numbers stack up.
also miss krankies assurance that they would be welcomed back into the eu with open arms etc i think is cloud cuckoo , just look at the number of east european countries who are still waiting and struggling to meet the demands the eu puts on them.
from a military point of view the mod are not going to leave security critical hardware or personel in someone elses hands no matter how close the ties.
but the basic decision has to be up to them.
afterwards we can sit here smug and say we told you so.
isnt that how it works lol.
Should it be a problem for the Scots, their choice, though Mitch?
If the situation was reversed and England decided it wanted to leave the UK, would it be fair for only England to make that decision? The rest of the UK would be serious disadvantaged in many ways, not least financially. Would they not expect a say?
Or did the UK government allow a Scottish referendum because the non-Scottish majority of MPs thought it’d be no great loss if Scotland left?
Mike I’m under no ellusion on the task we face in independence but I have a rather simple view on independence that is, no matter what we should be independent. People who say why be independent then join the EU miss the point. As things stand the English voters took Scotland out of the EU, as an independent country we would decide if we are in or out.
The thing is Brydo, Scotland did not vote to remain in the EU, neither did NI, nor did England and Wales vote to leave!
There was only one referendum, for the whole of the UK, and anyone voting in this referendum validated it, & therefore the result, just as they did in the 2014 referendum in Scotland.
You may not agree, but the problem with the SNP is not just the desire to hold another referendum against the backdrop of a ‘once in a lifetime ‘ referendum held only six and a bit years ago, but the anti English, anti UK Government, anti Tory rhetoric they pursue in their drive for independence , which actually alienates them amongst many people south of the border.
They are undoubtedly the ‘nasty’ party, but they are not Scotland, which is a well liked and well respected family member of the UK family , but is being tainted by the hatred generated by this bunch of charlatans.
I, and many like me, are not averse to Scotland eventually gaining Independence, ( just like children leaving home and branching out on their own, which is hard for the parents, but we wish them good luck & God speed ) however , it must be when the time is right ie when the economic conditions are right such that families are not going to suffer hardship, and when the hatred subsides , also, when an overwhelming majority of the electorate understand the huge costs and sacrifices they will make, but are still happy to leave the UK family and branch out on their own, and by mutual consent, but I can’t see this happening whilst the SNP continue with their hate campaign against the UK?
In my opinion Scotland is mature enough to make its own decisions and should be allowed to do so. Any shortcomings in Scotlands economic situation can only be because of the Union.
The whole idea of becoming Independent is to look to the future for potential improvements by being able to make decisions specific to Scotlands needs. From what I gather most Scots do not want to live off subsidies.
The fact is empires are not meant to benefit their colonies. They exist to benefit the centre of the empire
I’ve heard talk that the UK is a family of nations. Using that analogy Scotland has grown up and needs to make its own way in the world. If we are a family we should make every effort to help Scotland with whatever choice it makes, and not act like a smaller version of the Soviet Union.
Try googling GDP per capita and you will see Scotland is the ideal size to succeed. The dead hand of over centralised government doesn’t work. Just look at how the Countries of the old Soviet Union have improved economically since gaining their independence.
As Brydo said they have no illusions about the task at hand but independence isn’t just about economics. Its about identity, culture and having a country to be proud of. They don’t feel they have that now.
I’d like to think that the UK government could take a grown up view on this matter and not look like Spain with Catalonia, which looks more like Franco is still in charge rather than a modern democratic European state.
Ok, I’ll allow myself to be drawn into this Daf.
You say: Any shortcomings in Scotlands economic situation can only be because of the Union.
Are you willing to explain what you mean by that?
Do you recognise that because of the Barnett Formula millions of pounds of taxpayers money is shifted from England to Scotland which pays for free universities and prescriptions for the Scottish people and this would be lost in the event of independence?
Do you have any thoughts on what currency Scotland would adopt? Would they keep the UK pound but not have any say over the economic policy that supports it? Or would they adopt the Euro with similar lack of control ( until and unless they join the EU). Or would they float their own Scottish Pound which would mean international borrowing rates would be impossibly high because the IMF would impose them until the currency proved itself stable.
Happy for your thoughts..
There are a number of key issues here but like so many things in life it often comes down to money and the experts suggest Scotland would be poorer without any guarantee of re-admission to the EU.
Oooh. Here’s a point of view:
Be delighted to Wigwam. Firstly I think it’s important to look at the UK economy in its entirety before discussing Scotland.
The UK is one of the most centralised states in Europe in terms of of its Government and its Economy. The last set of stats I saw several years ago showed that of the Countries and regions of the UK only London and the South East of England were in surplus. Every other Country and region were in deficit and that is the dilemma of the way the UK is run politically and economically. Yes there is a generous settlement with the Barnet formula but it was written on the back of a fag packet (a statement made by Mr Barnet himself) and it has succeeded in keeping Scotlands head just above water.
Even were the system to be a little more generous the heavy hand of the UK government would still be holding the tiller of the economy. Couple that with the fact that the UK is the most unequal country in Europe in terms of how its considerable wealth is distributed. Any Country with a full third of its children living in poverty needs radical change. Of course we saw recently an example of how the UK government treats the poorest when a fine young man called Marcus Rashford shamed them into providing school meals for the poorest children in England. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland had already made sure these children were already receiving these meals.
The Barnet formula is also problematic in that the consequential payments are linked to expenditure in England. As we know on this forum the current and previous governments are busy cutting benefits for every claimant they can. That can only mean that the Barnet consequential will be reduced by the back door.
I will admit that at present although the Scottish economy is in a reasonable state (in a recent OECD economic comparison report Scotland was placed 17th out of 33) it would have problems with its tax v expenditure deficit. However I believe that the assumption being made by people is that the new Scottish government would continue with the same policies that have harmed Scotland so badly. With a dynamic new government committed to Scotland specific economic policies they can soon get that deficit reducing.
But it is isn’t just about the economics. As Brexiteers will I’m sure agree it’s about the freedom to create the Society that reflects the aspirations of it’s people by having the tools to do so. Within the crushing presence of the UK government there is no chance for the Scots to create fully the Country they would like to be. The UK has the choice of either reacting like Spain or the more mature democracy that they surely believe they are.
In any case unless they resort to the kind of dictatorial actions of a country like China the truth is that you cannot kill a movement towards freedom. It is a matter of time until Scotland becomes Independent and it will then be their fate to decide whether they make a success of it. As for the UK its reputation as a fair and tolerant society will depend on how it reacts to Scotlands referendum result.
As I mentioned earlier 65 Countries have left the Empire and not one has requested to return to their prior servile state. So the odds are with Scotland.
Scotland’s drug deaths rise to new record https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55184961
For the sixth year running, Scotland has seen a record total of drug deaths. We are once again the worst in Europe.
It shouldn’t come as a surprise. While the UK and Scottish governments organised competing summits to showcase their vision of how to tackle the problem, frontline workers warned that the death rate was accelerating.
This year, the mountain of toxicology reports into drug deaths needed £300,000 of extra funding to be cleared and, still, the figures were five months late.Much of the focus of this issue has been on the Misuse of Drugs Act, which is reserved to Westminster.
The Scottish government argues that it needs more control over the law to trial initiatives such as safer injecting facilities; the UK government argues the opposite, and that instead there needs to be more investment in rehab beds.
Those in the sector say these arguments only serve to simplify an issue that is so intractable, so huge.
Already identified as issues to tackle are punitive regimes that saw users kicked off methadone prescriptions for missing appointments. Those hoping for methadone were, in some cases, waiting up to five weeks for a prescription.
While the death toll climbed, funding to frontline services was cut by the Scottish government. In 2016, treatment was only reaching 40% of those who needed it.Not all is that great in scotland imo, it appears. Mr salmond was awarded 500k and those snp members who made the claims not upheld in a court of law are still recieving funds from the goverment funded ngo setup to support them.. and i doubt if you did leave the uk, the funding that you do get from the huge amount of uk taxpayers compared to those in scotland per capita would stack up, especally if fossil fuels tank in the years to come. So personally i think scotland has it good, so good and they got westminster to always blame as well..
That’s the bigger issue and one i have seen locally in england my town has missed out on £25m of funds why because labour don’t want the conservative mp to get the credit for it. So they voted down the plans and no money that is much need will becoming ourway.
You know the levelling up money and that’s the biggest issue all this my party must come first bs over the actual people’s needs as they cannot look bad and approve a scheme what the others proposed by the mp that was voted in by the people. When the next vote happens for the council they will be next out the door.
lets not even talk about the major apart from she set up a company with £1 to get a council funded contract to build affordable homes to sell for a profit. They all corrupt and have some agenda thats, really not for the people but to extort them..
Imo the snp are the same as all the rest and after living in many london boroughs and a few councils around the uk, i know which i prefer to live in if i have a choice, conservative run ones.. but i am not really a conservative. I’m a realist.. and what they all say and offer is not what you get.. You need to look into stuff yourself. Scotland deffo has more powers than it did before so that is a good thing as is local councils imo.
I am all for scotland being independant, but when the people vote then you must accept that vote and move on and when you should vote on it again is when time has passed and say like with brexit it has been implemented and given a chance to see what’s what..Then maybe we can vote on the matter again.
I am almost 50 and i have had one vote in my life on eu membership. But like if you do get indyref2 and the people vote to remain again what then? but imo that what the snp want.
Imo they a radical nationalist party and far something or other and for themselves. Luckily they do not stand in england. so i don’t have to vote for or against/ them and personally i would not as i would not vote for the bnp or edp etc…
But it’s ok for that to go on in scotland but not england as we’d be called bigots and racists just like those that voted for brexit was called as nazi’s well..
So this is one of the reasons i want scotland to sort it out and leave or stay and then get on with the issues that really matter to us all in the uk not just one part.. Just like with brexit now it’s done we can move on.
Very well put Daf.
In as much as it was a polemic on Independence, daf’s response was indeed well put. But it didn’t answer what I asked him, which is why I said I’m none the wiser. At least I tried.
In as much as it was a polemic on Independence, daf’s response was indeed well put. But it didn’t answer what I asked him, which is why I said I’m none the wiser. At least I tried.
Daf and I have agreed to differ and move on, so I will not respond, and I think that perhaps we should all agree to differ and move on to other interesting subjects to debate?
regards,
I accept that this discussion is in effect closed, but just wondered which of your questions I had not answered? Perhaps you are referring to which currency Scotland would use, as I felt that as far as why Scotlands economy and Cultural ambitions had been adversely affected by the Union was answered by the points I raised.
As far as the currency is concerned they could look at the example of the Norwegian Krone which is linked to the value of the Euro even though Norway is not part of the EU.
Although currency choice is very important that would be a decision to be made based on the economic data available at the time of Scotland becoming an Independent state.
Hope that answers your queries Wigwam but if you do have others I will do my best to answer them. l am by no means an expert but I did spend 23 years in the Financial Sector so know a little bit about it (unfortunately not enough to make myself rich!)
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