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The SNP are the government of Scotland and as such represent the Scottish people.
As far as the double standards are concerned, shouldn’t it be up to Scotland whether they want to be part of the EU or UK? As stated earlier I would have thought that those who advocate freedom through Brexit would be only too pleased to allow Scotland the same choice.
There is no doubt that if Scotland were a free state within the EU they would have far more control over their own affairs than they have within the UK. There will be a referendum in the not to distant future and if the only unionist argument at that time is that the Scots cant do better than living off handouts from London, the union is already doomed.
The SNP are the government of Scotland and as such represent the Scottish people. As far as the double standards are concerned, shouldn’t it be up to Scotland whether they want to be part of the EU or UK? As stated earlier I would have thought that those who advocate freedom through Brexit would be only too pleased to allow Scotland the same choice. There is no doubt that if Scotland were a free state within the EU they would have far more control over their own affairs than they have within the UK. There will be a referendum in the not to distant future and if the only unionist argument at that time is that the Scots cant do better than living off handouts from London, the union is already doomed.[/,
The other double standard of the SNP is –
A majority in the Independence Referendum is unacceptable, but a majority in the Brexit referendum is acceptable?
Ho Hum
No DAF, the SNP are not the government of Scotland. They a devolved administration with limited powers restricted to internal affairs. The government of Scotland is the UK parliament which the Scottish people elect MPs to. The UK parliament would need to legislate to allow another referendum and they won’t. Any attempt by the SNP to hold a referendum would be illegal.
On another note The EU would not allow a breakaway Scotland to join the EU. Remember how they supported Spain in preventing Catalonia from holding a referendum. The EU would see such an event as putting the whole EU at risk.
Mike700 That was then this is now. Scots opinion has changed with Brexit, the debacle over Covid and the Boris government. If you dont think the Scots would vote in favour of Independence why are Boris and co afraid to give them the opportunity? I have no doubt that if the Scots had been told prior to the last vote that by voting to stay in the UK they would have been forced to leave the EU against their will the result would have been different.
I still say the real double standard is the Brexiteers view on “freedom”.
Wigwam you dont appear to understand devolution because using your assumption the EU was the government of the UK with Parliament subservient to them. The SNP most certainly are the government of Scotland and certainly are more reflective of what the people of Scotland want than the Tories are in Westminster. Remember devolution is a process not an event.
You do have a point about opposition from within the EU but I still think it would be workable for the Scots to have a Norway style relationship with the EU. I still think that the situation in Catalonia is a job in progress.
Getting back to the original post it will be very interesting to see whether Sturgeon or Salmond come out on top. Amazing to think that the First Minister of Scotland is more popular in England than Boris! The mind boggles!
DAF, I suggest you study Constitutional & International Law before making your many uninformed claims. Your opinions are as valid as anyone’s of course, but facts are facts.
“Verify before you amplify” keep telling yourself that before you post Wigwam.
It’s called the Scottish Parliament because strangely enough it is the democratically elected devolved Parliament of Scotland and much more reflective of the attitudes and desires of the people of Scotland than Westminster. Westminster is the parliament of the British state which does of course have powers the Scottish parliament does not have, many of which need to be transferred to Hollyrood.
Should you find any other interpretation of the Parliament of Scotland, dont be shy share it with us.
I am more than happy to discuss constitutional law with you Wigwam, particularly as you dont seem to understand the concept of devolved parliaments within a U.K context. Remember devolution is a process not an event.
Semantics, daf.
The current Scottish Parliament is a creature of statute. It derives its corporate existence from the sovereign power of the Westminster Parliament. Westminster is entitled to abolish the Scottish Parliament and legislate in areas normally reserved to the Scots.
This is fact. It is why the SNP wants independence from the UK.
You again say “devolution is a process not an event”. You and the SNP may think that. Who else does?
I dont think its semantics to try and ascertain whether or not you think a Scottish government exists. It appears your knowledge of the UK constitution ended some time before 1997.
Try googling Scottish government, if the reply says no such thing or words to that effect, then you are correct. I just did so and had hundreds of different references to the current SNP Scottish government.
Indeed isn’t that what your original post was about i.e the machinations between current and previous Scottish Government members?
Just for your future information the Scottish Parliament came into existence in 1999.
Semantics, daf. The current Scottish Parliament is a creature of statute. It derives its corporate existence from the sovereign power of the Westminster Parliament. Westminster is entitled to abolish the Scottish Parliament and legislate in areas normally reserved to the Scots. This is fact. It is why the SNP wants independence from the UK. You again say “devolution is a process not an event”. You and the SNP may think that. Who else does?
Facts WW ,that would be refreshing when debating politics eh?
We are all entitled to an opinion of course, but on any Forum, quite a lot of opinion is not based on facts but a multitude of things such as urban myth, emotion and, of course political persuasion, not forgetting political expediency, with the ability to act as judge and jury and condemn those of different opinions, even if they are right, from the comfort of an armchair whilst hiding behind anonymity.
What is still completely ignored by those with an agenda of condemning the Government , and who are now gleefully weaponising the Coronavirus Pandemic , is that there was no ‘ Textbook’ on how to deal with a Pandemic such as this one, no experience of it from anywhere, no-one on earth had any experience, certainly not those on Planet Labour, so the only real course of action for any Government, no matter the political persuasion, was to turn to the experts ie ‘ the scientists’ .
The fact is, that these highly rated very well qualified scientists (who would likely be the same group had Labour been in power ) set the agenda for social distancing, lockdowns etc and frankly following this expert advice was the ‘only ‘responsible thing for any politician to do !
“The Prime Minister has committed the UK to work for equitable globalaccess to COVID-19 vaccines.
We have been instrumental in establishing COVAX – an international initiative to support the discovery, manufacture and fair distribution of vaccines for both lower and higher income countries.
COVAX aims to procure vaccine for one billion people in some 180 countries by the end of 2021. The UK is one of the largest donors.
We have committed £548m for vaccines for lower income countries and through matched funding mobilised other countries to raise over $1bn for the COVAX Advanced Market Commitment (AMC).
At the United Nations General Assembly in September, the UK announced that it would match every $4 pledged to the COVAX AMC by other donors with £1 in UK funding, up to £250m. Since then, other countries including Canada, Japan and Germany have committed funding to the scheme, combining to reach the landmark target of $1bn.
We have also put in a further £71m to secure rights to purchase up to 27 million doses for the UK population if needed.
We are focusing on supporting COVAX to deliver quickly and to develop a mechanism to enable countries with surplus doses to distribute them equitably.
The UK will use its Presidency of the G7 this year to further mobilise world leaders to support global efforts to end this pandemic and to seize the moment to strengthen international readiness for pandemics in line with the five-point plan that the Prime Minister set out at the UN General Assembly in September.
The UK government has been strongly supportive of the aims of the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations (CEPI) since its inception in 2016, contributing £260m to support CEPI’s work on vaccine development, including against COVID-19. CEPI supported vaccines include Moderna and Novavax.”
Buffoon eh, and what has Keef done to match this – moan and moan and moan,
Yeah , oh and not forgetting ‘moan’!The biggest mistake was not the timing of certain events, because it can be rightfully argued that firstly there is absolutely no evidence ( as yet ) that earlier intervention on lockdown etc would have made a difference overall, and anyway the tragic loss of life’s due to these so called delays may eventually be offset by the saving of life resulting from taking the World lead over the vaccination program , it’s only political expediency, in an attempt to harm the government, until the very end !
There have been mistakes made no doubt , but not from ‘buffoonery’ or incompetence, more from a lack of knowledge, and if the flip flopping saintly Knight ‘KEEF CHARMER ‘ had been PM , mistakes would still have been made , and who’s to say that there would have been fewer or even more mistakes than Boris supposedly has made , no one knows , and wild political speculation should be condemned as readily as criticism of the Government- it’s like everybody outside of Government is flying a simulator, and can change the flight path at the flick of a switch, or simply by following whichever direction that the wind is blowing, whereas theGovernment flying a full aactual aircraft?
The Government will be held to account of course, as any Government should , but not until the end of the pandemic ie , not at this time , it is completely inappropriate,and anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise is just a Political expedient.
An independent enquiry by a group of politicians, medical representatives, legal brains and laymen, will eventually investigate, and apportion blame, if there is any blame , other than that which clearly should be laid at the doorstep of the Chinese Government ……………………….. and it will look at the reasoning behind for example , recording the death of an ‘imminently ‘ terminally ill octogenarian, who happened to get the virus as ‘’ killed by Covid 19 ‘.
Glad you mentioned facts!
regards
There will be blame Mike as there has been fault. I take your point that there was no rule book for this pandemic and that’s mostly correct, but we have now had three waves and not learned from any of them.
We only know what we have been told and the information I have received suggest that Boris has not followed the scientific advice, certainly no when they offered it.
So as far as the information I have obtained, through various outlets, Boris did not act quickly enough on the expert information being offered.
When this is all over and when analysis worldwide has taken place, it may turn out that lockdowns were not the answer. Following one set of expert opinions may have done more harm than good. Opinion is just that, there’s always more than one of them…
Wigwam you posted “No DAF, the SNP are not the government of Scotland. They a devolved administration with limited powers restricted to internal affairs. The government of Scotland is the UK parliament which the Scottish people elect MPs to”. You may have missed the fact that most of the MPs returned by Scotland are from the SNP.
If you dont believe the SNP are the government of Scotland then there is no Scottish parliament. The fact that they have law making powers means that they are a true government in a true parliament. Go on Wigwam give up the habits of a lifetime and admit your wrong. No ambiguity the SNP are the Scottish government just as Westminster is the UK government.
Mike700 As you rightly say it is easy to draw conclusions from the comfort of your armchair and equally so to defend the indefensible. The UK government were provided with the same information supplied to Trumps America about the terrible damage this disease would cause. They were given a template of best practice by the actions taken by the Chinese in Wuhan which was copied by those Countries who really were willing to do what it takes to keep their populations safe.
Compare that to the reaction of the UK government whose approach can be summed up as almost constant prevarication. They talked a good fight but delivered more than 100,000 deaths. They dithered when they should have been decisive and its little wonder that their approval ratings are sliding. The things you’ve highlighted are all well and good and I welcome any acts of altruism and compassion. But the fact is we have the highest deaths per capita in the world and whilst I admire your loyalty, this Government must be brought to account not just for their pitiful attempt to deal with the Pandemic but the “one rule for us and another for you” approach exemplified by the Cummings incident and numerous others.
Daf,
I am not defending the indefensible,
I have to say however that I find this rush to condemn Boris to be somewhat unseemly and frankly. nothing more than politics.
If you put forward ‘supported ‘ evidence and data that shows what difference making some of the decisions would have made to the final death toll then fair enough. If not however how do you know ‘ what difference these decisions would have made.
As I have already said, the time for review and judgement of the performance in the UK is when the Pandemic is over, or at least is under control.
The time for looking for lessons from an International perspective is when many more countries have it under control.
Just because one approach has worked well for another country at any given time doesn’t mean it would have worked as well here.
As I have also said, the Government must be held to account , but based on a thorough examination of the detail , making sure the science of hindsight or emotional responses are not given an unacceptable level of importance.
What is most important about reducing or preventing the risks to us all in the future is that the practical lessons, for primarily the sciences, but also the political establishment is to ensure that the reviews are carried out in a proper,, objective, tested manner.
It may well be ,perhaps , better if the Government had acted sooner than they did, on certain matters, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Had they acted sooner, which now the political expedients say would have been the right thing to do, I believe that the decision would not have been at all well received by the majority. It was only as the situation became increasingly desperate that the need for urgent action became increasingly apparent and thus, possibly, more acceptable to a greater number of people.
You may not have a great deal of confidence in this Government, but
I do not envy them the task of managing the Covid pandemic, and the economy, and Brexit.Wigwam show me any Country in the world that has a parliament and no government. Did you try googling Scottish government?
You really ought to remember that mantra, Verify before you Amplify and you might not be mistaken for a conspiracy theorist.
On that point you appear to be questioning the effectiveness of lockdowns in the fight against Covid. Verified evidence please.
DAF, I’m sorry that you have entirely missed the point about the distinction between a Parliament and a government and some research of your own would clarify it. As to questioning the effectiveness of lockdowns, again it’s not my job to educate you. Do your own reading. There’s plenty out there to read. I’m not saying lockdowns are not effective – I’m saying I don’t know.
Your waffling Wigwam. Its a great shame you haven’t the good grace to admit when your wrong. You cant verify your views on the Scottish Government because you know your wrong.
Likewise alluding to lockdowns as being ineffective is equally without validation.
You are of course entitled to your views, but if you dont/can’t verify them then your audience will reach their own conclusions.
There will be blame Mike as there has been fault. I take your point that there was no rule book for this pandemic and that’s mostly correct, but we have now had three waves and not learned from any of them. We only know what we have been told and the information I have received suggest that Boris has not followed the scientific advice, certainly no when they offered it. So as far as the information I have obtained, through various outlets, Boris did not act quickly enough on the expert information being offered.
There may indeed be fault Brydo, and therefore some will want to lay blame for that fault, but the politically expedient are already laying it on thickly, but what I am saying is that we cannot lay blame until the end , and comparisons with others can be made.
It may be, that Boris has lost a few costly battles, but he may very well win the war , saving countless numbers of lives – we don’t know yet, and anything thrown at him is just politics by politicians, and we all know that ALL politicians lie – it’s the nature of the beast.
Daf, views are views, opinion is opinion, facts are facts. Learn the difference. No point continuing with this.
the thing with lockdowns is they are only as good as the people being locked down.
if people follow the rules (nz,china, canada) they work but if the people break the rules all the time uk,usa,australia then they dont.
we only have ourselves to blame if the lockdowns are not as effective as they would be if people did as they were supposed to.
just look at the number of fines being issued, idiots driving miles for stupid reasons and the number of parties being held all over not just students.
its time some of these idiots were jailed, personnally i would bring back the town stocks but then that would encourage people to gather to pelt these idiots.
Or, of course, Mitch, instead of looking for scapegoats, you could look at the statistics from countries or US states which haven’t imposed draconian lockdowns, and see if they’ve faired any worse.
Oh, and I’m not defending the rulebreaking, far from it.
As I said takes a brave person to admit they are wrong.
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