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Given the facts showing climate change and the need to get away from burning fossils for fuel, to head towards a more sustainable future, not just for us but for our children, grandchildren, great grandchildren…. etc etc because barring a major catastrophe most of us will die off naturally in the next 50 years (I’m 55 so guessing there?) but our families could hopefully still be continuing on for the next 2000 or more years?
Does Motability have a moral duty to take the lead in promoting the move away from the ICE and towards EVs ?As much as I passionately think we should not be financially punished for needing an automatic over a manual car I think we should not be financially pushed away from an EV. The recent deposits for the ridiculously low choice of EVs has been shocking as well as for the PHEVs (I’m ignoring the mild hybrids cause they are nothing more than a box ticking exercise)
Some of the deposits asked recently for a Zoe would cover some peoples entire fuel bill for 3 years and they’d still have change leftover.
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Motability has a financial responsibility to their shareholders & backers not to lose money.
However, I compare how much a standard petrol auto model costs with how much the closest EV equivalent costs, & then factor in that I would probably spend £2100 more in petrol/diesel over the course of my 3 year lease than I would with the EV.
The Peugeot 2008 1.2 EAT8 auto Allure at £799 compares to the Peugeot e-2008 Allure at £1999, & would likely cost a little less over the lease (possibly as much as £900) but would involve some extra hassle. To me that’s not unreasonable, but as soon as that balance changes it can soon make much more sense to favour one over the other. Remove the £3500 government EV grant & the EVs all fall off the scheme anyway.
Motability may need to take a closer look into EV APs as with current trends these EVs will have depreciated very little over 3 years as we are seeing massive demand for secondhand EVs & with the 2035 phasing out of fossil cars it’s likely that secondhand EVs will command a high value.
Saying that, certain EV models won’t do as well as others in this game, those without active cooling of the battery pack will see the batteries deteriorate faster (Nissan Leaf is a culprit here) wheras the cars with the best battery management will see very little battery deterioration over 10 or more years. There is a lot for Motability to learn about EVs, & I think that’s the same for most of us.
to a degree its down to individual driving numbers i do low mileage over a lease and few long distance journies so an electric wouldnt have range issues for me. my issue is the ap and getting in and out easily.
at the time i was looking only the bmw i3 was suitable, had i needed space for a wheelchair/scooter even that would fail. i can get and have done a petrol car with no outlay but the cheapest i3 has an ap for wpms of £685. at best if i could find a deal i have seen a £500 contribution from marshalls and their 24 hr zero ap deal.
so at the moment petrol wins out as ordinarily i can get an auto grant from veterans towards the ap and the gcb usually i can go to £1300 for an ap and not be out of pocket but this time as ive finished the current lease early i wont get the grant so the ev loses out.
Financially the EV’s make a lot of sense but environmentally they aren’t the miracle we’re all led to believe. Modern Petrol and Diesels (especially with the adblue) are producing a lot less crap than they used to, and the only way the press and industry make EV’s out to be the miracle they claim is by ignoring the large additional amounts of CO2 involved in the production of the cars which is, I believe substantially higher than a standard car. In the short term at least EV’s are actually worse, the benefits will only come with time, but they hopfully will come. Of course there’s the end-of-life situation to account for – what impact is going to be felt when it’s time to get rid of all of those old batteries etc?
I’m NOT anti-EV but I like to try to see all sides of something, as opposed to just swallowing the one-sided hype hook, line and sinker.
"Man is born in freedom, but he soon becomes a slave, in cages of convention, from the cradle, to the grave."
Motability has a financial responsibility to their shareholders & backers not to lose money
Motability (Operations Ltd) or the Motability charity does not have shareholders.
Gothitjulie… nice to see you doing the full costings over the 3 years and that’s why I say they should be reducing the deposits to make EVs the smart choice for financial and environmental reasons.
However the argument about shareholders is poor… that’s the same as the gun manufacturers selling arms to Saddam so he can kill his own civilians… never mind the morals we need to provide dividends for the shareholders.
<p style=”text-align: left;”>Colin…. you are completely wrong on almost every single point you made there. The only bit you got right was the first 8 words “financially the EVs make a lot of sense”</p>
Petrol and diesels might emit less crap than they used to… but they still emit crap and they still have to burn irreplaceable fossil fuel to do it? That’s like saying I don’t beat my wife as much as I used to so I should be allowed to carry on doing it?You talk about the co2 produced in manufacturing an EV, you believe its higher than a standard car… well your wrong there cause it’s less, and over the lifetime of the cars the ICE will continue to produce co2 emissions every time the engine is running where as the EV won’t.
Old batteries… always a favourite that one, how are we going to get rid of them. Well we don’t get rid of them, they are recycled and reused as energy storage for houses, factories, offices etc. The charge they hold and how they use it may not be suitable for a car anymore but to run a house or an office is fine.
You may say you’re not anti EV but you are certainly swallowing all the scare stories put out by companies with a vested interest in keeping the oil flowing. Go do some proper open minded research on the subject, I recommend watching a film called Who killed the electric car, and a few of the Fully Charged videos on YouTube or ones by Dr Euan McTurk.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-just-how-green-are-electric-vehicles
I have no reason to disbelieve it – they state that to break even, as in produce the same co2 as a petrol car, from the start of manufacturing onwards, cars will have to do (depending on the scientifically based calculation you use) between 18,640 miles to a staggering 435,000 and that’s completely ignoring the end of life of the battery.
To continue with your ridiculous comparison to beating your wife, bearing in mind I do about 7000 miles a year, it’s effectively saying “I should beat seven shades of nasty stuff out of my wife for the next few weeks, then I’ll drop it WAY down to the occasional slap, and by the end of the 3rd year of it, she might have been hit less but then again, it might take as long as 62 years for it to level out and end up in her favour”
As for the irreplaceable fossil fuel comment, NO-ONE KNOWS how much is or isn’t left, or how quickly new sources are developing – all you have to go on is estimates and guesses. The fact is, as Fossil Fuels are created by the very gradual breakdown of things in the earth, every minute of every day there’s a bit more being created – we have no way to know how quickly or in what quantity so irreplaceable is a complete misnomer.
Over the lifetime of the car the EV won’t continue to produce CO2? So every owner is using 100% CO2 neutral energy sources to charge up are they? They’ve also all managed to source tyres, repair parts, service parts etc. from 100% CO2 neutral sources too?
Every point I made was 100% correct, and based on established scientific facts, and for yours, you have to ignore several points or assume things.
Actually, I would go as far as to say you’re even wrong when you agree with my comment about EV’s making financial sense – they will only do so if the car user is going to do enough miles while they have the car to offset the additional outlay of the car compared to the cost savings in electricity vs Petrol/Diesel.
I haven’t looked up your suggested sources of information. Based on nothing more than the titles I think it’s fairly safe to assume they’re going to be every bit as one-sided and biased as you claim the things I have looked at are.
“If you have to exaggerate a point to make it, it’s probably not worth making” is something I deeply believe in, which is why I DO do my research and look at both sides of something. I’m not normally one for assumptions, but based on pretty much everything you wrote, I doubt you’re the same way.
"Man is born in freedom, but he soon becomes a slave, in cages of convention, from the cradle, to the grave."
The Peugeot 2008 1.2 EAT8 auto Allure at £799 compares to the Peugeot e-2008 Allure at £1999
The OTR cost of the Petrol 2008 in question is £25,100
The OTR cost of the Electric 2008 in question is £30,300 +£3500 Grant = £33,800
I don’t believe it’s down to a moral responsibility, more mathematics. Perhaps the answer does not lie at the door of Motability but the manufacturer, maybe the question should be how can Peugeot justify charging £8700 more for an electric car?
The manufacturers obligation is to get the highest price it can. And of course, the price Motability pays for its cars is subject to negotiated discounts off list prices. As manufacturers seem able to sell all the EVs they can produce, the discounts are likely to be lower or non-existent.
the basic test for me is an ev financially viable,can i use it comfortably. the short answer for most of them is no i need a high driving position so i can get in and out. those that have a high enough driving position ds3,2008,i3 all have high ap’s.i can save over £1000 on the ap alone. as i do relativeley few miles its more than i would save on fuel. so at the moment its a simple maths exercise for me.
for others its the size issue as they need to accomodate walkers/wheelchairs/scooters.
so whilst they are the future they arent there yet.
The Peugeot 2008 1.2 EAT8 auto Allure at £799 compares to the Peugeot e-2008 Allure at £1999
The OTR cost of the Petrol 2008 in question is £25,100 The OTR cost of the Electric 2008 in question is £30,300 +£3500 Grant = £33,800 I don’t believe it’s down to a moral responsibility, more mathematics. Perhaps the answer does not lie at the door of Motability but the manufacturer, maybe the question should be how can Peugeot justify charging £8700 more for an electric car?
This is a good point to tackle because we know that the EV’s batteries are under $150 per kWh, so…
$150 x 50 (on a e-2008) = $7500 for the battery pack, x 0.78 to change it to £ = 5850 + VAT = £7020.
So once you compare engines to electric motors/BMS/etc., that ballpark £8700 isn’t a figure that is too far from unreasonable. Battery cost will reduce each year so hopefully the cars become cheaper as a result, or, the battery capacity increases for similar cost (BMW i3, Renault Zoe).
For the recyclability question on the lithium ion batteries, they do get reused as power banks currently, but lithium batteries can also technically be recycled, they now contain far less cobalt too which will help. My large wheelchair runs on recycled lithium iron phosphate batteries as an example (just need to be careful not to melt the motors going uphill too fast).
Sorry, I missed another add in cost.
$95 per g of carbon over 95g per km, an EU rule, so for the petrol Pug 2008 at 109g/km, that would be 14 x $95 = $1330, which is around £1030 extra cost for producing the petrol engined version.
It’s not going to be that many years before the EV versions will be more economic for the manufacturers to produce.
Julie you have been busy and pretty accurate with your calcs.
Colin for every negative article about EV’s out there, there are two pro EV articles I could post so where are we.
There is no doubt that battery electric cars are not perfect, Julie is correct that virtually every piece of a lithium ion battery can be recycled. Its also true that batteries no good enough for cars can be used for homes, factories etc. The batteries being produced by Tesla will out live the cars by many years. Tesla are nearing producing a 1,000,000 mile battery, yes they are.
However it is very likely that battery technology will change fairly soon, solid state and various other technologies are getting very close to market arrival and should be with us within a few years. In the mean time battery costs are roumered to be within touching distance of $100 pkwh. This is the price where ICE and Bev’s become the same to produce.
Getting back to the topic motability operations are a business in the car sector of the economy, the next trustworthy car dealer I meet will be the first one. Motability operations have no morals and its notability the charity who are to blame, they should be using a charities moral code to guide them but they don’t. They are happy to keep quite and take their yearly backhander worth millions each year.com
The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.
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