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https://www.motoringelectric.com/buying/electric-cars-better-environment/amp/
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
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Since when do petrol and Diesel cars last more than a Million miles.
Modern Batteries will last a lot longer than 150,000 miles.
Oh dear God, talk about deliberately ripping the lid off a can of worms.
Simple truth, no, absolutely no personal form of transport that doesn’t require the said person to propel it is good for the environment. However, selling that to the general population is going to be a very hard sell.
As a compromise, a car using the cleanest form of energy is a good bet. However, such a vehicle will have a more complicated manufacturing process and raw materials. Lets not forget though that petrol and diesel vehicles have to be forged, raw materials manufactured (often in coal fired furnaces) and there are still a huge amount of electronics that also contain many rare minerals. Also, the fuel isn’t ready to go fresh from the drill, so there’s additional energy and minerals involved in their manufacture.
The creation of a battery is no different to the creation of the Lithium batteries we all have in our mobile phones, laptops and other portable devices, it’s just that there’s more per unit. If you want to create havoc over the creation of an EV battery, do it from a desk top computer and use a land line for phone use, cabled power for all your tools and never, ever throw away a battery.
A standard laptop battery is good for around 30,000 cycles (power to full and use until empty) if the car battery is good for the same and can do 200 miles per cycle, then that’s 6,000,000 miles use out of a battery. Although there’s details like the degradation which means the car battery will be undesirable for it’s original use before then, as at 30% degradation that’s a car down to 140 miles. The battery is still good for many thousands of cycles, so use them as batteries for other needs, like home storage – how long will your home run off 40kWh energy? – charge from solar or wind power and that’s 100% green energy as the battery’s manufacturing process has been met by ecological savings over petrol in the car.
Then there’s local pollution. The air quality in cities is poor because cars produce a bunch of bad chemicals in the combustion process, remove that process (renewable electric production) or move it elsewhere (combustion power generation) and the cities will be less unhealthy places to breathe. Again, it’s not a 100% cleaner solution but it’s much, much better than the combustion process.
Finally, the improvements over ICE are completely dependent on where you’re based. In China or India where power is largely produced from coal fired generation, all you’re doing is moving the problem, not reducing the output. However, if you have large capacity renewable production, taking up 75%+ of your power production, then the difference in national pollution will be phenomenal.
I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.Mark
A good old Christmas debate, whats not to like ??
Whils’t electrical vehicles may come across as being green, may make the UK’s and the rest of Europes air cleaner to breathe, even with the use of coal fired powestations, we do so at the expense of countries where Rare Earth Elements is mined. Its a con like carbon offsetting.
There are 2 primary methods for REE mining. A third relatively new method of mining perhaps the only place not touched by man is the deep sea bed. Thankfully this has been temporarily halted by scientists for fear of the eco system.
Both of the two primary methods for REE mining produce mountains of toxic waste, with high risk of environmental and health hazards.. Cancer and other health conditions are ripe in humans and animals in the towns associated with mining, waterways are polluted and villages directly around the mines are buried underneath the waste material.
For every ton of rare earth produced foe electric vehicle batteries, the mining process yields 13kg of dust, 9,600-12,000 cubic meters of waste gas, 75 cubic meters of wastewater, and one ton of radioactive residue. This stems from the fact that rare earth element ores have metals that, when mixed with leaching pond chemicals, contaminate air, water, and soil. Most worrying is that rare earth ores are often laced with radioactive thorium and uranium, which result in especially detrimental health effects. Overall, for every ton of rare earth, 2,000 tons of toxic waste are produced. The process is also enegy intensive, which also has a negative impact.
China dominates the REE market accounting for 80% of global supply. Only 35-40% of the worlds REE supply’s are in China itself however, China also controls mining in other countries.
China’s most infamous mine Bayan Obo, the largest REE mine in the world. Even more infamous than the mine itself is the tailing pond, which has produced over 70,000 tons of radioactive thorium stored in the area. This has become a larger issue recently because the tailing pond lacks is leakng, as its contents have been seeping into groundwater and polluting the Yellow River, which is also a key source of drinking water. Currently, the sludge is moving at a pace of 20-30 meters per year, a dangerously rapid rate. Anyone seen the documentory on the Yellow River?
The village of Lingbeizhen in the Southern Jiangxi province has leaching ponds and wastewater pools exposed to open air. Toxic chemicals spilling into groundwater or waterways since they are left unmonitored and vulnerable to nature. In another mine, so much wastewater was created that China had to build a treatment facility to clean 40,000 tons of wastewater per day before letting the water flow back into the river.
Both people living in the villages around the mines and mine workers are also suffering from health complications due to exposure to these toxic chemicals. Worker safety is also not prioritized or monitored in these mines, resulting in skin irritation and disruptions to their respiratory, nervous, and cardiovascular systems as well as cancer are ripe in these areas. Human rights abuses have been reported throughout mines in these areas as laborers are overworked and underpaid.
China has taken some steps to address issues arising from REE mining, but not nearly enough. The Chinese government has also acknowledged the existence of so-called “cancer villages” where a disproportionately large number of people have fallen ill with cancer due to mining-based pollution. Officials have shut down some smaller illegal mining operations, looking to consolidate mining under six state-owned groups that the Chinese government claims will maintain better practices surrounding toxic waste management, but farmers claim state-owned companies are just as bad. Some argue state-owned companies are worse because they poison communities with governmental support. For example, in Zhongshan, a company claimed it was extracting resources before the government built a highway in the area, but after the highway was finished, it refused to leave. People in the area began noticing wastewater seeping into their farms, and they were forced to inhale sulfur every time they went outside. 15 protestors were arrested in 2015, and ten more protestors were arrested two years later. Some farmers from Yulin, an area with REE mining, have a similar story: they started protesting when they saw their crops and livelihoods being affected by REE extraction.
For China’s narratives of progressive reform on REE mining, China understands the value of its monopoly and wants to maintain the status quo. It appears as though China is now moving its operations to Africa, where it can contaminate outside communities instead of exposing its citizens at home to the risks of REE mining. Though some of these operations are conducted by private companies, the six major mining companies are all state-owned enterprises. China has achieved exclusive rights to the REE deposits in a handful of African countries in return for infrastructure building. For example, China obtained the rights to lithium mines in the Democratic Republic of the Congo in return for building national roads, highways, and hospitals. Similarly, China obtained commercial licenses for REE mines in Kenya by agreeing to build a US$666 million data center. More deals are surfacing in Cameroon, Angola, Tanzania, and elsewhere.
To try and counter Chinese influence, the United States has restarted some of its older REE mining operations in various states. The government wants to ensure that critical US industries can remain separate from China in the event of a larger dispute.
A good old Christmas debate, whats not to like ?? Whils’t electrical vehicles may come across as being green, may make the UK’s and the rest of Europes air cleaner to breathe, even with the use of coal fired powestations, we do so at the expense of countries where Rare Earth Elements is mined. Its a con like carbon offsetting. There are 2 primary methods for REE mining. A third relatively new method of mining perhaps the only place not touched by man is the deep sea bed. Thankfully this has been temporarily halted by scientists for fear of the eco system. Both of the two primary methods for REE mining produce mountains of toxic waste, with high risk of environmental and health hazards.. Cancer and other health conditions are ripe in humans and animals in the towns associated with mining, waterways are polluted and villages directly around the mines are buried underneath the waste material. For every ton of rare earth produced foe electric vehicle batteries, the mining process yields 13kg of dust, 9,600-12,000 cubic meters of waste gas, 75 cubic meters of wastewater, and one ton of radioactive residue. This stems from the fact that rare earth element ores have metals that, when mixed with leaching pond chemicals, contaminate air, water, and soil. Most worrying is that rare earth ores are often laced with radioactive thorium and uranium, which result in especially detrimental health effects. Overall, for every ton of rare earth, 2,000 tons of toxic waste are produced. The process is also enegy intensive, which also has a negative impact. China dominates the REE market accounting for 80% of global supply. Only 35-40% of the worlds REE supply’s are in China itself however, China also controls mining in other countries. China’s most infamous mine Bayan Obo, the largest REE mine in the world. Even more infamous than the mine itself is the tailing pond, which has produced over 70,000 tons of radioactive thorium stored in the area. This has become a larger issue recently because the tailing pond lacks is leakng, as its contents have been seeping into groundwater and polluting the Yellow River, which is also a key source of drinking water. Currently, the sludge is moving at a pace of 20-30 meters per year, a dangerously rapid rate. Anyone seen the documentory on the Yellow River? The village of Lingbeizhen in the Southern Jiangxi province has leaching ponds and wastewater pools exposed to open air. Toxic chemicals spilling into groundwater or waterways since they are left unmonitored and vulnerable to nature. In another mine, so much wastewater was created that China had to build a treatment facility to clean 40,000 tons of wastewater per day before letting the water flow back into the river. Both people living in the villages around the mines and mine workers are also suffering from health complications due to exposure to these toxic chemicals. Worker safety is also not prioritized or monitored in these mines, resulting in skin irritation and disruptions to their respiratory, nervous, and cardiovascular systems as well as cancer are ripe in these areas. Human rights abuses have been reported throughout mines in these areas as laborers are overworked and underpaid. China has taken some steps to address issues arising from REE mining, but not nearly enough. The Chinese government has also acknowledged the existence of so-called “cancer villages” where a disproportionately large number of people have fallen ill with cancer due to mining-based pollution. Officials have shut down some smaller illegal mining operations, looking to consolidate mining under six state-owned groups that the Chinese government claims will maintain better practices surrounding toxic waste management, but farmers claim state-owned companies are just as bad. Some argue state-owned companies are worse because they poison communities with governmental support. For example, in Zhongshan, a company claimed it was extracting resources before the government built a highway in the area, but after the highway was finished, it refused to leave. People in the area began noticing wastewater seeping into their farms, and they were forced to inhale sulfur every time they went outside. 15 protestors were arrested in 2015, and ten more protestors were arrested two years later. Some farmers from Yulin, an area with REE mining, have a similar story: they started protesting when they saw their crops and livelihoods being affected by REE extraction. For China’s narratives of progressive reform on REE mining, China understands the value of its monopoly and wants to maintain the status quo. It appears as though China is now moving its operations to Africa, where it can contaminate outside communities instead of exposing its citizens at home to the risks of REE mining. Though some of these operations are conducted by private companies, the six major mining companies are all state-owned enterprises. China has achieved exclusive rights to the REE deposits in a handful of African countries in return for infrastructure building. For example, China obtained the rights to lithium mines in the Democratic Republic of the Congo in return for building national roads, highways, and hospitals. Similarly, China obtained commercial licenses for REE mines in Kenya by agreeing to build a US$666 million data center. More deals are surfacing in Cameroon, Angola, Tanzania, and elsewhere. To try and counter Chinese influence, the United States has restarted some of its older REE mining operations in various states. The government wants to ensure that critical US industries can remain separate from China in the event of a larger dispute.
And that’s all exclusively for cars?
Whilst the production has increased for cars there’s still a mass of items we all own that are also responsible for this. As I said, unless you’re using nothing with a battery in it, you’re complicit in the environmental destruction attributed to the BEVs.
I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.Mark
The only problem I have with EV’s is that they are being promoted by a lie. They are no better for the environment than petrol vehicles and are actually worse in many cases.
Saying they run on the ‘cleanest energy’ source is also incorrect. Even sustainable electricity generation has its own environmental problems. For example the amount of wind turbine fans that are going into landfill and the deaths they cause to aerial wildlife is astronomical. Solar panels are also costly and come with disposal problems. The ‘cleanest’ energy form is nuclear but we aint getting nuclear powered cars anytime soon.
The biggest lie of all though is that even if everyone converts to electrical vehicles it will have very little impact on CO2 emissions as cars are far from the biggest cause of this and there are many studies out there now showing that earths eco-system is adapting itself to the increases in CO2 (plants make use of it) and has been doing since the planet first formed as CO2 levels have fluctuated throughout history.
If someones lifestyle fits in with what EV’s can provide then I say go for it but don’t start forcing everyone else into a situation that may not be suitable to them based on inaccurate environmantal information and fear mongering
I think ev’s have become very good cars. I have ordered one for the overall package of driving experience, comfort and home charging convenience. Will let others debate if green or not. We all need transportation so go for what suits you.
And that’s all exclusively for cars? Whilst the production has increased for cars there’s still a mass of items we all own that are also responsible for this. As I said, unless you’re using nothing with a battery in it, you’re complicit in the environmental destruction attributed to the BEVs.
Of course mate, it also include laptop batteries, mobile phone batterires and Neodymium used in whitegoods such as washing machines. Production has increased substantialy since EV’s have become a thing.
Nothing is truely green. Governments allowing certain industries to use carbon offsetting, to allow them can continue their industry/s, is noth more than a con.
And that’s all exclusively for cars? Whilst the production has increased for cars there’s still a mass of items we all own that are also responsible for this. As I said, unless you’re using nothing with a battery in it, you’re complicit in the environmental destruction attributed to the BEVs.
Of course mate, it also include laptop batteries, mobile phone batterires and Neodymium used in whitegoods such as washing machines. Production has increased substantialy since EV’s have become a thing. Nothing is truely green. Governments allowing certain industries to use carbon offsetting, to allow them can continue their industry/s, is noth more than a con.
Totally agree we have become guilty as charged.
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
Some real rubbish put about here by some folk who seem to have a pretty low IQ ?♂️ or an agenda fostered and supported by the fossil fuel industry ?
For all the folk against EVs please give us your solution to stop burning a non renewable substance… remember when the oil created by dead dinosaurs is gone, it’s gone for good ?♂️ not getting reused to heat your house at night
Some real rubbish put about here by some folk who seem to have a pretty low IQ
or an agenda fostered and supported by the fossil fuel industry For all the folk against EVs please give us your solution to stop burning a non renewable substance… remember when the oil created by dead dinosaurs is gone, it’s gone for good not getting reused to heat your house at nightIll leave it to you, to prove my comment wrong and FWIW I’m not agains’t EV’s, rather its all bullshit, to say they are clean green machines!
Governments allowing certain industries to use carbon offsetting, to allow them can continue their industry/s, is noth more than a con.
Aaah, Carbon Offsetting, the environmental equivalent of creative accounting. The same goes for manufacturers buying credit from EV manufacturers so they can have their given figures on zero emission percentages. The reality is that buying anything to give the impression of being better for the environment is purely deceitful.
@Rhodgie, Fossil fuel is not gone, it’s barely even endangered, there are millions of gallons not yet tapped, otherwise the petrochemical companies would really be backing the switch to new fuels as it’s the only way to save their bacon. The one thing I can say for absolute certainty is that there are reserves and the companies busy extracting them have confidence enough to put lip service to renewable energy sources. Until there’s global legislative bans on fossil fuels OR there’s a real risk of these reserves either being unavailable, the oil companies we can all name will continue to grow their profits in the same unhealthy manner.I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.Mark
@MFillingham I didn’t say it ‘was’ gone… I said ‘when’ it’s gone, it’s gone. We are burning a material that is not renewable. It’s a one shot deal, unlike batteries, plastic, metal, glass, cloth etc it can’t be recycled at the end of its life. You are being a bit nieve to think that petrochemical companies aren’t going to try and milk every penny they can from us before spending anything more than they have to on an alternative. There might even be more oil out there but the cost of retrieving it will soon become outwith the budget of most people.
@kezo I never claimed they were clean green machines ?♂️ but I do say they are a better option for our long term future than ICE vehicles are so that’s the route we need to go down until battery manufacturing improves or another source of energy can be harnessed. And remember that battery technology is being constantly improved unlike petrol/diesel production, let’s give them the same 100+ years that the oil industry has had to see where we are ?Merry Christmas everybody ? ?
Merry Christmas everybody ? ?
You have a great one too but just as a slightly amusing observation – If you are going to question the IQ level of fellow posters you might want to make sure your facts on what oil is made from is accurate 🙂
Can we limit this thread to the original question – are electric cars are better for the environment than ICE cars. The answer is an obvious yes.
Mining ore’s for batteries is also better for the environment than drilling / transporting / refining oil for ICE fuels.
However, oil is used for much more than just ICE fuel, so we are dependent upon oil for decades to come…
Kind regards
Andy======================
Motability cars:
Now - Not on the scheme.
2021 - Volvo XC40 T5 PHEV.
2020 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.
2017 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.My 2 1/2 year old grandson has a little electric car seem quite happy running around his garden, however it is made of plastic a bi-product of crude oil
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
Mining ore’s for batteries is also better for the environment than drilling / transporting / refining oil for ICE fuels.
I beg to differ. Mining in REE rich countries has a far more detremental impact on the enviroment and human health. Deep sea mining for REE has been temporaiy halted due to scientists, will have a far fetching impact on the ecosystem, disturb the carbon stored in the seabed and release it.
Are EV’s better for the enviroment, well that depends on how look at it and whether you are talking about the UK or countries where it is mined.
I beg to differ. Mining in REE rich countries has a far more detremental impact on the enviroment and human health. Deep sea mining for REE has been temporaiy halted due to scientists, will have a far fetching impact on the ecosystem, disturb the carbon stored in the seabed and release it. Are EV’s better for the environment, well that depends on how look at it and whether you are talking about the UK or countries where it is mined.
If you think the mining of EV materials is more harmful to the environment than the global oil / petro-chemical industry, then you are very much mistaken.
Oil is drilled all over the world, on land and under the sea. The oil industry has been ongoing for well over 100 years, so is significantly more mature and pervasive. We have relied on oil (and products containing oil) for over 100 years, and unfortunately we still very much dependent upon it – hence why Countries / Companies will do anything they can to get it.
Mining of ore’s used in EVs is also impacting the environment, but this is tiny when compared to oil.
Also, you have to factor in the green house gasses produced during the refining of oil, and those expelled by those burning oil – bikes, cars, vans, trucks, trains, planes, industry, electricity generation etc. The sheer scale of it dwarfs the mining of ore’s from the ground and then processing it (which also uses oil).
As I stated in my earlier post, the modern world is so dependent on oil, and shall be for many more decades unfortunately…
Kind regards
Andy======================
Motability cars:
Now - Not on the scheme.
2021 - Volvo XC40 T5 PHEV.
2020 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.
2017 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.Putting all that largely invisible to the avg consumer stuff aside. These cars make a real difference to inner city air quality which is often ignored by figures for example a calculated 4000 people died prematurely in London alone from poor air quality*
On top of that on a personal level comparing the 2 l, I cannot stand the smell petrol/diesel and exhaust smells having a hire car has really shocked me how much I take it for granted I didn’t even think the smells bothered me before
Plus there’s the reduced vibration and feedback like via the steering wheel. I’ve noticed a real reduction in pain and pins and needles driving electric Vs ice
Might not be about saving the planet but it is saving me anything on top is icing
* Imperial College London figures recognised world experts in air quality research
@Rich44 I agree, there are personal benefits to driving an electric car.
Personally, I find the lack of engine and reduction in road noise a huge benefit, with 2 autistic people in the car having a loud stereo is problematic, being able to listen to the music at half the volume does reduce some stress. The regeneration and associated braking benefits are huge if your lower limbs are struggling. I find that driving and using the brake is becoming a real issue, the pain generated by twisting is unreal. While left foot braking is possible the ease of one pedal driving is far superior.
When you take into account the extra space you get in a car designed to be electric and the improved seating and comfort plus the softer benefits, like ride, handling and driving that can also be found in some non electric cars and you’re on to a winner.
Finally, there’s cost benefits, charging at home is both cheaper and easier than having to visit a petrol station. Even charging on a long trip isn’t inconvenient if you’ve a family in tow, by the time they’ve all got to the loo, had a wonder around the shops and nagged for food/sweets the car has boosted enough for the next few hours.
I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.Mark
Be banning sprouts next, those little beggars are bad for the environment as well, at least in our house anyway.
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Hyundai Ioniq 6 Ultimate trim
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Loves 3D printing & Plastic model kits
----------------------------Be banning sprouts next, those little beggars are bad for the environment as well, at least in our house anyway.
Sprouts are bad for the enviroment! the human gasses they give off, in the form of smelly farts, is enough to pollute the larges’t of households far and wide ??
Be banning sprouts next, those little beggars are bad for the environment as well, at least in our house anyway.
Sprouts are bad for the enviroment! the human gasses they give off, in the form of smelly farts, is enough to pollute the larges’t of households far and wide ??
??? Excellent post! @kezo ??
Kind regards
Andy======================
Motability cars:
Now - Not on the scheme.
2021 - Volvo XC40 T5 PHEV.
2020 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.
2017 - VW Golf TDi SE Match.@Rich44 I agree, there are personal benefits to driving an electric car. Personally, I find the lack of engine and reduction in road noise a huge benefit, with 2 autistic people in the car having a loud stereo is problematic, being able to listen to the music at half the volume does reduce some stress. The regeneration and associated braking benefits are huge if your lower limbs are struggling. I find that driving and using the brake is becoming a real issue, the pain generated by twisting is unreal. While left foot braking is possible the ease of one pedal driving is far superior. When you take into account the extra space you get in a car designed to be electric and the improved seating and comfort plus the softer benefits, like ride, handling and driving that can also be found in some non electric cars and you’re on to a winner. Finally, there’s cost benefits, charging at home is both cheaper and easier than having to visit a petrol station. Even charging on a long trip isn’t inconvenient if you’ve a family in tow, by the time they’ve all got to the loo, had a wonder around the shops and nagged for food/sweets the car has boosted enough for the next few hours.
Pretty much every review I’ve watched on EV’s state that their handling is not great compared to their ICE counterparts due to their much higher weight. Tesla reviews in particular also mention the fact that road noise can be quite a problem with them also.
This extra weight is going to cause a lot more damage to road surfaces as they become more numerous on roads and road repairs are going to increase as well.
The other thing I wonder and one which isn’t discussed a lot is road accidents, especially involving pedestrians. A lot of EV owners seem to push the acceleration capabilities of these vehicles as a really positive aspect and combine that with increased weight and I can’t help but feel that fatalities are going to increase due to this.
EV’s are fine in certain situations but it seems EV owners seem to feel the need to claim they are superior in every aspect when in reality they are inferior in a lot of respects
or an agenda fostered and supported by the fossil fuel industry 
For all the folk against EVs please give us your solution to stop burning a non renewable substance… remember when the oil created by dead dinosaurs is gone, it’s gone for good 
not getting reused to heat your house at night
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