Vehicle-to-grid can save you £££££££££`s

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    Topic
  • #188894 Reply
    Brydo
    Participant

    A trial of vehicle-to-grid (V2G) smart charging has shown that the technology could cut home energy bills significantly while also helping to provide essential support to the grid.

    Run by Electric Nation, an Innovation project of Western Power Distribution (WPD), in partnership with CrowdCharge, the project recruited 100 Nissan electric vehicle owners in the Midlands, South West England and South Wales.

    Drivers charged at off-peak times when the energy was cheaper and greener and used V2G to sell this energy back into the grid, or use it in their home, to help minimise energy demand at peak times.

    Participants who also had solar panels were able to charge their EVs with free 100% renewable energy. The trial allowed participants to transfer this green energy from the EV to the home at peak times, so further reducing demand on the grid.

    Full findings are yet to be published but the now-completed project is said to have proven that vehicle-to-grid charging works both from a technical point of view, and from the perspective of customer acceptance. It’s also shown significant potential for commercial fleets to reap similar benefits, but on a larger scale.

    Funded through the Network Innovation Allowance (NIA), the project differed from others by partnering with more than one energy supplier and allowing many different import and export tariff types. The business says this means that the trial was a more realistic simulation of a future world in which many streets will have a number of EVs using V2G chargers operated by different energy suppliers.

    Because the Electric Nation V2G trial used a number of electricity providers and tariffs, the project was able to show how tariffs influence charging behaviour.

    Marie Hubbard, who participated in the project with her Nissan e-NV200 campervan, said: “As well as trialling the Electric Nation vehicle-to-grid charger, I have solar panels on the roof of my house, and an electricity tariff that allows me to import and export energy. So, I set the vehicle to charge during the night when electricity prices are lower, and I exported energy from the vehicle to the grid during the peak times of higher demand.

    “The result is that as well as reducing my electricity bill from £50 to £25 per month, I also made £25 per month by supplying energy to the grid. This shows that vehicle-to-grid charging has the potential to reduce people’s energy bills, as well as helping to reduce the amount of electricity generated by fossil fuels.”

    Roger Hey, WPD’s electricity system manager, explained: “Vehicle-to-grid charging doubles the amount of flexibility in the electricity system, although in reality it brings even greater benefit because it also allows us to use the same unit of energy multiple times through charge/discharge cycles.

    “V2G has enormous potential to reduce the amount of new electricity network that we build and can contribute towards optimising the whole energy system in Britain, ultimately needing less generating capacity and reserve.”

    The V2G trial follows the first Electric Nation project from 2018/19 which at the time was the world’s largest EV smart charging trial, providing real life insight into people’s habits when charging their vehicle.

    Currently, only Nissan EVs can be used for V2G charging due to their CHAdeMO technology, but the CCS charging system in the majority of EVs is due to be V2G-compatible by 2025; from that point V2G should be possible for all EVs. Action will be required from the energy supply industry to make V2G work for consumers, but Electric Nation says its project has shown the many merits of such work.

    Full findings from the Electric Nation Vehicle-to-Grid end-of-project report will be available soon.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
    Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

Viewing 19 replies - 1 through 19 (of 19 total)
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  • #188901 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    This is something we were talking about on the NICEIC forum recently.

    What extra equipment was needed at the customers premises or did they selectively choose EV’s with the capability of doing so?

    Let me explain:

    AC electricity from your consumer unit flows the the wall charger or 13A socket into the EV’s charger. The EV’s charger then transforms AC into DC charging the vehicles onboard battery at a set maximum wattage. Fast chargers feed the EV battery directly with DC. This makes the vehicles inbuilt charger redundant and allows faster charging.

    To convert DC back to AC to power your home or sell back to the grid requires an invertor. Not all EV’s have this capability yet So they either used additional equipment or selected owners of EV’s that have this capability:

    EV’s require what is known as Vehicle-2-Load (V2L) / Vehicle-to Grid (V2G) technology. In the case of the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5, the sister brands have developed what they call built in bidirectional chargers, that can take electricity from the lithium chargers as well as charge them. Bidirectional systems are designed to send electricity stored in their batteries back to the grid (V2G) and (V2L).

    This technology will appear on all new EV’s in the near future.

    #188902 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    Why does the system log you out sometimes when posting?

    #188903 Reply
    Rene
    Participant

    Really isn’t that ground braking though, or am i missing something? It’s basically a Tesla Powerwall. Or, if you want, a UPS (uninterruptable power supply, backup for servers), or Octopus Powervault.

    As you pointed out, a (very) few EVs already are able to supply back to the grid – i can’t imagine (although i’m not an electchicken) that it’d be hard to do it the other way around. Instead of inverting at the car, invert at the next generation wall charger.

    Indeed, wouldn’t there be the option for an “inverter cart”, that you plug your car into which converts it to AC? Of course it wouldn’t be that straight forward, just plug your EV in and have lights in the house, i remember all that requiring extra “stuff” with our solar panels.

    That said, i’ll play the party pooper. Even if i had a V2G capable car, i wouldn’t do it. Studies so far (all but a single one) came to the conclusion that, if you don’t severely limit the c-rating/discharge rate, the battery will degrade fast. Of course, only that single positive study gets quoted constantly (the one arguing that V2G somehow improves your battery life, because physics don’t matter). Only if you look into it you notice that their argument is that if you drive your EV, and then discharge the rest into the grid (down to 8%), it’ll reduce fade that can occur if you constantly charge from 50% back up. Another trope is that warranty isn’t impacted, because Nissan allows for V2X in their stipulations. V2X is a communication protocol and has nothing to do with power transfer.

    I don’t trust a single thing that tries to trick uneducated (as in, on the topic) people into thinking that a certain “thing” is good for everything and everyone. If you cycle your battery more, you lose capacity (range) faster, that’s an inarguable reality. That’s why, when asked, manufacturers as well as people conducting these trials give you a non-answer if you ask how this affects battery life and more importantly, warranty.

    The idea is cool, but if manufacturers don’t allow for V2G in their warranties, then it’s all pointless. And i can’t see manufacturers picking up the tab for people who “make money” with their cars. Which means that after 4 instead of 6 years your range is severely impacted, you’re in for a battery replacement out of pocket. Which, if Tesla is anything to go by, is prolly gonna eat up all the savings you got through V2G, and then some (a lot some).

    edit: Snake oil, christ. That’s the term i was looking for.

    Current: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19
    On Order: VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23

    #188904 Reply
    Ian

    Interesting point on battery degradation there Rene,

    I like the idea of V2G as I have solar panels myself and I am considering buying batteries for it to reduce my need to buy as much electricity from the grid.

    However I do have a big battery parked outside my house…….

    I read that battery degradation in EVs is peddled as a problem where in fact the battery will last many times longer than an internal combustion engine is expected to survive.

    #188908 Reply
    wmcforum
    Which Mobility Car

    Why does the system log you out sometimes when posting?

    I’ve had it happen on occasion, it’s probably the browser cache, I’m no expert however.  I will have a read to see if I can find out.

    #188918 Reply
    gilders
    Participant

    My first thought was, wouldn’t this degrade the battery quicker?

    I see a possible future of ex-lease cars being sold with very degraded batteries. Not just because of V2G, but many people who lease not recharging and discharging batteries in a way that prolongs battery condition, as they may have the attitude of “won’t be my problem, I’ll be handing it back when it’s 3 years old”

    Of course similar could be said about ICE cars not being serviced, but I think it’s part of a lease agreement to do servicing.

    #188919 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    Really isn’t that ground braking though, or am i missing something? It’s basically a Tesla Powerwall. Or, if you want, a UPS (uninterruptable power supply, backup for servers), or Octopus Powervault

    No the technology behind it is not groundbreaking or new for that matter. Yes you could think of the EV battery in essence a battery backup on a solar PV system.

    As you pointed out, a (very) few EVs already are able to supply back to the grid – i can’t imagine (although i’m not an electchicken) that it’d be hard to do it the other way around. Instead of inverting at the car, invert at the next generation wall charger.

    In reality yes you could, but if you think of it as a solar PV system and all the equipment needed, it would be one hell of  a charger to fit it all (inverter) in. (Although technology improves over time and one day we may see a micro charger in the future) So it is better for the EV’s onboard bi directional charger and BMS to do it.

    Indeed, wouldn’t there be the option for an “inverter cart”, that you plug your car into which converts it to AC? Of course it wouldn’t be that straight forward, just plug your EV in and have lights in the house, i remember all that requiring extra “stuff” with our solar panels.

    Yes it is possible but as you have pointed out all the extra equipment required on a solar system or at least an inverter setup to convert to 230V AC. There is however a fundamentally bigger problem, in that EV plays a big part here: If the EV is not equipped with V-2-L or V-2-G to enable bidirectional charging, nor the BMS is set up to allow voltage to travel away from the onboard battery its not going to do it (the computer says no)

     

     

     

    #188920 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    My first thought was, wouldn’t this degrade the battery quicker? I see a possible future of ex-lease cars being sold with very degraded batteries. Not just because of V2G, but many people who lease not recharging and discharging batteries in a way that prolongs battery condition, as they may have the attitude of “won’t be my problem, I’ll be handing it back when it’s 3 years old” Of course similar could be said about ICE cars not being serviced, but I think it’s part of a lease agreement to do servicing.

    Every battery has a maximum life cycle of charge/discharge, so will leave you to decide.

    However when solid state batteries eventually become the norm in EV’s it ay well be a different kettle of fish.

    #188935 Reply
    Rene
    Participant

    My first thought was, wouldn’t this degrade the battery quicker? I see a possible future of ex-lease cars being sold with very degraded batteries. Not just because of V2G, but many people who lease not recharging and discharging batteries in a way that prolongs battery condition, as they may have the attitude of “won’t be my problem, I’ll be handing it back when it’s 3 years old” Of course similar could be said about ICE cars not being serviced, but I think it’s part of a lease agreement to do servicing.

    Every battery has a maximum life cycle of charge/discharge, so will leave you to decide. However when solid state batteries eventually become the norm in EV’s it ay well be a different kettle of fish.

    That’s fair of course, but i doubt that’ll happen in my lifetime.

    So far, real solid state batteries are barely able to power ear buds. It’ll be “a while” before that becomes the mainstream battery technology.

    Current: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19
    On Order: VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23

    #188939 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    That’s fair of course, but i doubt that’ll happen in my lifetime

    Maybe and a big maybe closer than you might think or maybe not quite solid state 🙂

    https://thenextweb.com/news/whos-making-solid-state-battery-evs-when-can-we-drive-them

     

    #188946 Reply
    Rene
    Participant

    That’s fair of course, but i doubt that’ll happen in my lifetime

    Maybe and a big maybe closer than you might think or maybe not quite solid state 🙂 https://thenextweb.com/news/whos-making-solid-state-battery-evs-when-can-we-drive-them

    Nope. Read the two last sentences. I’m not going to be around in 2040. 😉

    Keep in mind, even IF they manage to power a car through solid state packs reliably this decade, that’s not in a production model – and more importantly, once they do become usable, they’ll be stupendously expensive due to the nature of solid state packs.

    Of course i might be wrong on the timeframe, but whenever they become viable you can add at least another 10 years for them to become available in cars that we could afford. By which time other technologies (hydrogen etc) might’ve taken off.

    Or, of course, by that time the sealevel has risen so much that we’re looking more at boats.

    Current: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19
    On Order: VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23

    #188968 Reply
    Brydo
    Participant

    Ian i like the look of V2G and as far as i can make out, from next year, all Volkswagen BEVs will be capable of V2H use. Looks like a nice little earner to me

    In my opinion, without V2G charging, the grid will struggle to cope with electricity demand in the next five to ten years.

     

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
    Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

    #188969 Reply
    Brydo
    Participant

    Solid State batteries are difficult to imagine anytime soon but Store Dot are working on a “Solid State hybrid” battery with a gel rather than a solid electrolyte.

    They say it will be on the market by 2028.

    Store Dot is the company who will be bringing the “100 miles charge in five minute” battery next year and from what I’ve been reading Volkswagen will be using them from 2024.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
    Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

    #188972 Reply
    Brydo
    Participant

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
    Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

    #188979 Reply
    Rene
    Participant

    In my opinion, without V2G charging, the grid will struggle to cope with electricity demand in the next five to ten years.

    There’s no way that V2G becomes commercially viable in the next 5-10 years. Or, let me put that differently. There’s no way that the market share of new V2G compatible EVs is high enough in 10 years that it’d make any difference. If they come with “normal” batteries, the degradation is enough to put people off, if they come with packs that can handle it, they’re too expensive to be widespread (in ten years, the technology is cutting edge and just released – just look at which cars are properly fast charge capable and how much they cost – it’ll take time for that tech to drip down to lower price models – 300kw charging of the Taycan, for example).

    Here’s another thing. We pay taxes for exactly that. I’m not quite sure where the argument could be made that we as taxpayers are required to supply the infrastructure that’s needed for the Government to meet their “no ICE” targets. That’s nonsense. We pay taxes, those taxes go (obviously amongst other things) into Infrastructure. It’s the governments job to create the situation where banning all ICE cars is viable, and that very obviously includes spending money on reinforcing the energy grid.

    Current: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19
    On Order: VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23

    #188982 Reply
    Ian

    My view is that the peaks and flows of electricity consumption need levelling out and managing.

    EVs are perfect for this. Rather than switch on standby power stations and run hydro powerplants at times of high consumption why not use the EV population supply and consume over under supply.

    #188986 Reply
    Brydo
    Participant

    Rene going on the basis the Government have no money only money they collect in taxes, or borrow for us to pay back at a later date, we will be paying for these changes one way or another.

    In ten years time all BEVs will have V2G, V2H capability, in my very humble opinion, and remember there will only be EVs available to the new car market in the early to mid 2030`s. So there will be millions of BEVs on the road making V2G, V2H the only show in town. Sure it won’t be easy and there will be hurdles to overcome but overcome them we will.

    Ian your absolutely correct, BEVs will be the power station of the future, a furure where the power stations are green. Millions of BEVs giving 3/4 kwh when required to balance the grid sounds like a great solution to me.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
    Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

    #188993 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    From my understanding of the documents ive seen using EV batteries on a V-2-G will not become a long term if any viable option and simply isn’t really the answer. To expand on this the UK has seven of the largest windfarms in Europe and the largest off shore windfarm. Currently the government pays millions to turn these windfarms off at night during off peak hours. The governments reform of planning will see its long term plan to have above 50MW of clean energy storage around England and 350MW in Wales which would treble the battery storage capacity and see storage cells 5 times bigger than those currently available. In 2020 the government invested 10 million in the largest and worlds first liquid air facility in Manchester. The 50 MW project, to be built in Trafford, will be able to store energy for longer than a lithium battery – helping power 200,000 homes. With a plan to bring even bigger batteries. By doing so and keeping the windfarms running rather than paying millions to shut them down, will not only harness enough electricity for the future but also the money saved can be reinvested building more battery plants.

    I think @Rene said in his last post that it was up to the government to do something, well they have and it will be the long term solution to enable the grid keep up with future demand. However Ev’s will continue to evolve and will become capable of V-2L, V-2H, V-2-P or whatever manufacturers choose to call theirs, will still have role to play in powering the home should there be a power cut. But they will have a little if any role in powering the grid in everyday life, other than maybe helping untill MW battery stations are up and running around the UK. MW battery plants will also be easier and more efficient for the grid to manage rather than power from EV batteries feeding the grid from here there and everywhere.

    #189017 Reply
    kezo
    Participant

    Why does the system log you out sometimes when posting?

    I’ve had it happen on occasion, it’s probably the browser cache, I’m no expert however. I will have a read to see if I can find out.

    Assuming the system is setup as should with sufficient times:

    ini_set(‘session.gc_maxlifetime’,xxxx’);

    ini_set(‘session.gc_probability’,1);

    ini_set(‘session.gc_divisor’,1);

    xxxx number of seconds or could be defined in minutes if another calculation line exists. However this needs to be set at the default value of the server.

    To find out what the default session time out on the server is using ini_get command:

    ini_get(‘session.gc_maxlifetime’);

    I would also guess the system is set up to send an ajax call to the server every x time to keep its connection.

    It could also be down to certain cookie expiration requiring setcookie command (name, expiration)

    However given it only happens occasionally after being logged on for a while, could be down to the ISP changing something drastically  since the last time active.

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