- This topic has 38 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 6 months ago by
.
- Topic
Well today is the first day of 20 mph speed limit on the majority of roads in Wales. Like most things it seems a great idea in principle slow down traffic on residential roads and but keep the arterial roads mainly as is.
However, some of the arterial and main roads now have stretches of 20 mph which having driven it today, was reminiscent of speeds when the roads are covered in ice and snow.
So the first problem is that recent advertising has said that “where there is street lights assume it is 20 mph” but they didn’t but check the road signs. Today drivers travelling in a 50 mph stretch see some lights near a junction and slam on the brakes! Others just keep on going at 20 mph no matter what the limit is.
Plus the implementation in some places is just hasn’t been thought though where there is a stretch a 1 speed limit, less than 100m at a different limit before returning to the original.
A delivery driver today mentioned he is 2 hours late at the end of his route because of the changes and other drivers sticking at 20 mph no matter what the limit is.
It is confusing for us locals but for visitors the chances of losing your licence within a few hours of arriving in Wales is quite a likely prospect and with the proposed “Tourist tax” I can less tourism and firms wanting to invest
- Replies
I think it will go along away in getting the labour party unelected at the next election, pehaps this is what our governments are aiming for around the country, with their unpopular idea’s! When looking into it, did they base its implementation on car from the 70s and 80s, without active safety systems.
Surely some common sense is needed with the way it was implementated, such as on a timed basis around places like schools, rather than a blanket 20mph 24hrs a day.
Who’s going to police it and there no money in the pot for speed cameras. However give a week or two camera vans will be out in force looking for easy targets that do 27mph coming from a 40 or more speedlimit area. Or is the intention if it slows traffic in general the goverment would call it a winner?
Looking at the interactive map around here things look pretty normal with only a few implementations and if the police car I followed today doing 30ishmph down a steep decline in one of the zones fair enough.
I normally go the scenic route to Carmarthen, which is about an hours drive. If the route becomes 20mph hyperthetically it will add 30mins to my journey. It has the ptential of having a massive impact on delivery drivers reps and holiday makers – many of my old friends from acroos the border have said they will never come to Wales again, one has since put his static up for sale likening it to Khans fresh air ULEZ, yet only adds 13mins to someones life 🙂
My next car will be a mid 70s 597cc Fiat 126 45s 0-60 ??
As part of my journey home tonight I drove from Llandeilo to Ammanford and it was painful :
People now panicking that they are going to captured by a camera van whom now travel at 18 mph no matter what speed limit.
Huge lorry’s rumbling along belching smoke.
Cyclists going quicker than the cars !
Speed limits going from 60 to 20, 30, 20, 40, 50 ,20 etc. Drivers are now having to concentrate more on the road signs than the road.
And what occurred to me as well today, can you imagine the further drop in driving standards as learners practice and do their driving test at 20 mph ! Once they get somewhere like the M4 they are going to be like a rabbit in a huge number of headlights.
Didn’t bother me too much – most residential roads in germany are 30kph (18.5mph) with arterial roads being 50kph (31mph), people manage just fine.
It’s the transition that hurts. Did drive a little bit today, it’s a little awkward because i’m not used to it (so i was creeping up constantly), but that’s just something i gotta get used to.
If a driver can’t adjust to changing circumstances, he shouldn’t drive. I’m certainly not happy about the change, but it is what it is, and as mentioned, other folks handle it just fine.
The one thing i will do though is to drive really close to the sidewalk or dead centre in the middle of the road if there’s a bicycle behind me. After years of enjoying their shenanigans, .. my turn now to make myself as much a nuisance as possible.
Prior: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19, VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23
Current: Hyundai Ioniq 6 Ultimate
Next: we'll see what's available in 2028.Various comments on driving at 20mph but no-one has mentioned (and the government doesn’t seem to mention it) that driving at 20 mph means a lower gear, higher revs and longer to get anywhere thereby increasing pollution which we are supposed to be trying to lower.
I lived in Ammanford up till 5 years ago, in Llanelli now.
I checked the speed camera map and the vast majority of speed camera vans are at or in the approach to schools. For me that’s a good thing.
I tend to put the car in cruise control, even in 20mph limits, and keep my foot near the brake in case the car strays over the set speed while going downhill.
A report for the Department for Transport has concluded that 20mph zones have made no impact on road safety and that drivers have reduced their speed by just 0.7mph within those zones.
The study was carried out over four years, in twelve different areas. One of the main findings is that up to 94% of drivers break the speed limit if they usually drove above 24mph before the 20mph zone was introduced.
Revenue raising:
Before we jump on the revenue-raising bandwagon, which undoubtedly will be an issue, a close look at the report will perhaps reveal a more political nature to the introduction of 20mph zones.While there is an argument for road safety, there are three main factors in the decision for a 20mph zone; these are broken down as: transport related, community or politically driven, and health-related. Within these three categories are three weak answers – to reduce the negative impact of cars in urban centres (such as parking space pressures and congestion), a low-cost way to ‘improve’ the lives of residents, and as a way to tackle the perceived quality of the environment.
Revenue raising:
Before we jump on the revenue-raising bandwagon, which undoubtedly will be an issue, a close look at the report will perhaps reveal a more political nature to the introduction of 20mph zones.While there is an argument for road safety, there are three main factors in the decision for a 20mph zone; these are broken down as: transport related, community or politically driven, and health-related. Within these three categories are three weak answers – to reduce the negative impact of cars in urban centres (such as parking space pressures and congestion), a low-cost way to ‘improve’ the lives of residents, and as a way to tackle the perceived quality of the environment.
It would seem that road safety was the intended by-product, rather than the driving force behind implementation.
Speed kills
Twelve areas took part in the study, including parts of Winchester, Liverpool, Brighton, Portsmouth and Middlesbrough, where data could be collected before and after implementation of the 20mph zone. The cost for each zone ranged from £10,000 through to £1.7m and focused solely on zones with no other traffic calming measures such as chicanes, speed humps or directional rights of way.It was found that typically, drivers ignored the signage, believing that the risk of being caught speeding was minimal, which led to just a 0.7mph reduction in speeding through the zone, with an overall reduction of 0.9mph in the surrounding areas approaching the zone. 47% of drivers admitted to regularly breaking the 20mph limit, that figure increased to 94% of drivers where the road was previously faster than an average of 24mph.
Edmund King, president of the AA, says: “We believe that targeted 20mph limits work best where they’re needed – outside schools or hospitals, or places where other vulnerable road users may be encountered. Speed limits need to reflect the nature of the road, and this report has vindicated the reservations of motorists with regard to 20mph zones”.
Road safety:
Within the study, it was found that the biggest contributing factor to an accident was ‘failure to observe’, either as a pedestrian (17%) or motorist (37%), but the lower speeds should mean that a road user has more time to react to an incident – which in theory means a lessened chance of injury.However, it’s that very reason that could also cause a problem – with road users having more time to react, it seems that complacency is increasing. Further still, and perhaps the biggest takeaway from the study is that there is a small amount of evidence that shows an increase in driver frustration and distraction.
The frustration part is purely from learned behaviour – that can change with time, but the distraction part could be down to the need for constant checking of the speedometer; ensuring that you’re driving below a 20mph limit takes concentration and a certain amount of skill, and with the influx of silent-running electric vehicles, that could be made worse – there will be no engine note as guidance.
With no significant change in accident rates, and no benefit to the environment, can the local authorities justifiably continue to spend the amount of money required to create such folly? It would seem that these 20mph zones are now purely about the perceived perception of a neighbourhood, rather than offering any benefit whatsoever, and in a time when councils are going bust, surely the money is better spent elsewhere?
Of course, there is always a need to back causes that improve road safety, including reduced speed limits where there is proven benefit, but an inappropriate blanket 20mph zone isn’t that. Perhaps we should be thankful that currently, many of these reduced speed zones aren’t enforced with speed cameras as a simple money-making hotspot, but the cynics amongst us would ask how long it will be before that happens?
The report below was done when Londons MAD HATTER AKA Khan’s City of London Corporation is looking at implementing a 15-20mph speed limit in the capital’s Square Mile to help with road safety and reduce pollution. Yet experts around the country say that if anything, it will increase pollution levels due to the stop & start nature of the traffic.
Pollution study
A study by the Edinburgh Centre for Carbon Innovation (ECCI) in 2013 found similar results; the nature of stop/start traffic at low speeds means that there is an increase in acceleration and braking, coupled with the fact that at such low speed, any motorist would likely to be in a low gear, which would further exacerbate the problem. The optimum speed for minimising vehicle pollution and emissions is actually around 40mph.
However, that’s simplifying it too much, there are further points to be aware of.
If the traffic flow is smooth, then lower speed limits will help with reducing pollution, it’s only when you introduce the stop & start of city driving that it will negate the effect of lower limits. Due to further legislation surrounding emissions, car manufacturers comply with much stricter emissions regulations, and therefore, their products are tuned to give optimum returns under the majority of use – around 45 – 50mph in top gear.
Using traffic-calming measures can work under certain circumstances, but it gets back to keeping the traffic flowing smoothly – not accelerating away from speed humps or traffic lights for example.
Generation
While it’s undoubtedly commendable to try and reduce the number of injuries in a locale, there needs to be serious thought given as to how practical this can be, or whether it’s just another publicity/money generating scheme for the local authority.Evidence and experts say that a 15 to 20mph speed limit won’t really affect either positively – it won’t reduce accidents, nor will it help with pollution, so just what is the purpose of lowering the limit? We know the cynical answer, but surely, it can’t be that blatant?
It seems if we have one woke or barmy person in a government or council, it has influence on the whole department and internal evidence is tailored to fit their agenda’s!
The City of Londond’s mad hatter is clear evidence of this with his hated ULEZ and expansion of. Kahns idealogy backed up by the city of London is evidence of this, when they said it will extend lives. Yet studies by experts far and wide said it would only extend lives for 13 minutes. Similarly his barmy idea of reducing speed limits were equally proved wrong! Now it seems we have a Khan in the Welsh government, probably someone who can’t drive and has a vendeta against motorists!
An idealogy costing £33 billion that will achieve nothing in relity other than anger motorists. A scheme that is surely a home goal for Labour at the next election. Would the money not have been better spent reducing NHS waiting timing building new hospitals or school or even improving our pot holed roads or am I being to sensible?
Let’s be honest this change is going to take time to adapt to so it’s too early to come to any rational opinion about the changes. The government has to make sure that the speed limits are adequately signposted as well as a progressive approach to implementing fines. I dont know why some are finding this such a radical change as 20 limits have been implemented on an ongoing basis for several years and more so in the last couple of months.
If it saves lives it is surely worth a try, I just hope they really target the idiots that take very little notice of any speed limit rather than just making their conviction rates look good by booking people for doing a couple of miles over the limit. We need to allow the change time to bed in before coming to any hasty conclusion.
Let’s be honest this change is going to take time to adapt to so it’s too early to come to any rational opinion about the changes. The government has to make sure that the speed limits are adequately signposted as well as a progressive approach to implementing fines. I dont know why some are finding this such a radical change as 20 limits have been implemented on an ongoing basis for several years and more so in the last couple of months.
If it were implementated around schools (which is the case), hospitals or even estates I doubt there would be the uproar there is! But it isn’t just in those area’s as it includes trunk roads and other roads where you don’t see the likes of children, so perhaps timed zone’s would have been more appropiate!
Will it save lives when drivers are constantly looking down to check their speed or has Wales turned into Khans city of London, where expert studies prove everything he says wrong such as in the reports above 🙂
Watch out @Daf I’m heading back to England at house next door to you ?
I have to agree with kezo …. 20 mph speed limits are potentially more dangerous than 30 mph limits, due to a driver’s concentration and eyes being repeatedly on the speedometer rather than on the road and pavements.
We all have an innate feeling for what 30 mph feels like due to years of inbuilt learning and practice. 20mph will take years to in-bed intuitively and will involve much more time spent looking at the car dashboard to avoid fines.
I’m dying to see the police trying to enforce this in certain areas of Cardiff and Swansea that resemble the wild west.
It would definitely put me off visiting Wales as driving at 23 mph would get you 3 points.
We do have some proper loonies running the country.
Didn’t bother me too much – most residential roads in germany are 30kph (18.5mph) with arterial roads being 50kph (31mph), people manage just fine.
But not all residential roads are 30 km/h as some are 50 km/h but that isn’t the point as I agree with 20mph in these area’s its the arterial roads thats the stupid and from memory these roads are 100kmh in Germany? 🙂
No more holidays in Wales for us, Scotland here we come!
2024 - KIA EV6 GT Line AWD
2019 - 2024 BMW X1 2.0d X Drive Sport Auto
2017 -2019 Audi Q3 2.0d Quattro Sport Line Plus
2005 - 2017 Honda CRV Exec 2.0dNo more holidays in Wales for us, Scotland here we come!
20mph, tourist tax, name changes you will never read and a woke government, what more could you ask for and just think of the ectra range you will get in that lovely i4 of yours lol ?
Not funny ??
Not all residential roads in Wales are 20mph either. As far as having to check whether your travelling over 20mph and the inherent dangers of doing so that would also apply to other limits as well wouldn’t it?
Kezo they might be “woke” whatever that means compared to the greedy self serving corrupt inept lot currently governing the UK, but then it’s a case of better the devil you know?
tvs afraid you might need to go a bit further than Scotland for your holidays as they are monitoring the situation in Wales with a view to implementing legislation in 2025.
If it saves lives, it certainly is worth it, but it is likely to be turned into a political football, and kicked into touch eventually anyway – but in the meantime, even one child spared is a huge gain!
They have substantial numbers of signatures protesting against it, but they will undoubtedly ignore these initially , with an inbuilt majority in the Senedd waving two fingers at the protests?
They are claiming all sorts of unproven & unsubstantiated figures about how much safer it is at 20 mph than 30 mph, without taking into account the inbuilt safety features of modern motorcars!
Apparently, they are to apply the NPCC guidelines and will only prosecute for breaking the speed limit by 10% + 2 mph eventually ie 24 mph. but for a transitional period will allow 10% + 4 mph ie 26 mph.
It is extremely likely that there will be thousands of frustrated, impatient drivers over the limit – another good revenue stream?
However, despite the opposition, in reality , on a lot of the roads , it is difficult to exceed 30 mph anyway, due to volume of traffic – but they do need to apply common sense rather than Political dogma!
If it saves lives, it certainly is worth it, but it is likely to be turned into a political football, and kicked into touch eventually anyway – but in the meantime, even one child spared is a huge gain!
20mph have been around schools for sometime now, even some estates! This is not the issue, rather almost all arterial roads have become 20mph. This is bonkers considering the likes of kids don’t play on these roads. I’m surprised they never included the M4 with there near blanket 20mph.
On my way taking daughter to school, I saw the council changing the signs in one particular area (roads of a roundabout) After fetching my daughter from school I approached a brightly coloured new sign saying 30mph as I approached the roundabout from a residential street – to the left and right of the roundabout the signs said 20mph, ahead of the roundabout the sign said 20mph? Figure that one out 🙂
First of all, there is nothing at all scientific about this post, only a personal view with the aid of my daughter in law. She is an extremely focused caring individual, who as well as having four of my lovely grandchildren and a couple of foster kids, chairs the local school’s PTA. So she cares about child safety hugely.
Today I went out with her in her 9 seater Mercedes Vito on both the morning school run and then a sixty mile round trip to deliver stuff she had collected for a trust that supports less fortunate children.
As an exercise I asked her to ignore the motorway and drive through the centre of Worcester and the suburbs to our destination. The only stipulation was that in 30 mph areas she drive at 20 mph.
She was amazed at just how difficult and distracting this was. We annoyed many other drivers by doing this but I asked her to ignore the following traffic and just concentrate on our experiment.
Half an hour later when we arrived at our destinati0n we were both stressed and knackered. My caring daughter in law said “who the **** came up with this crazy idea”? Politicians I replied.
We both agreed that in the vicinity of a school or a hospital a 20mph limit was an excellent and desirable idea, but as a blanket idea was totally useless and and potentially dangerous.
We returned on the motorway at an average of 60mph and were relaxed, comfortable and safe when we returned to Malvern having more than halved our journey time.
Do politicians ever test drive their own wildly impractical ideas, or is it really just another money making enterprise?
@POPS – That was very cruel of you putting your DIL through a test like that ?
She is terrific, and up for a challenge but you’re right keso, she said when we got to our destination “you’re a sadist!
She is terrific, and up for challenge but you’re right keso, she said when we got to our destination “you’re a sadist!
I don’t blame her and I did like her answer when you arrived at the drop off point!
She seems like a lovely lady and I bet you are proud 🙂
P.S Dripford doesn’t drive! Maybe spare us a thought whil’st you lay awake a night!
Take care POPS,nice to see you around 🙂
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.