Two tier motability scheme.

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    Topic
  • #272602
    Brydo
    Participant

      It’s clear there is a divide on Motability with regards to those who can home charge an electric vehicle and those who cannot. Up until now the main benefits of home charging have been the cost of charging and convenience.

      However, there are chargers available now and more over the next couple of years that will make vehicle-to-load (V2L) and vehicle-to-grid (V2G) chargers widely available, at a cost, this will enable those with the home chargers to run their homes from the car battery at cheap overnight rates. This will further widen the gap between those who can home charge and those who cannot.

      Similarly, there are a number of vehicles that have V2G or V2L capabilities at present. Kia EV9 and EV6 have this installed and the Kia EV5, and many others, that has either V2G or V2L installed.

      So this allows those with a home charger to not only fill their car up very cheaply but run their entire home electrics at the cheap rate also.The saving is huge and could reduce the yearly electricity bill by two-thirds and if you are able to get an air source heat pump the savings are even greater.

      I’m not sure anything can be done to level this disparity and of course, there is no blame to be levelled at anyone but it is a massive difference between people on the same Motability scheme

      The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
      Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

    Viewing 21 replies - 1 through 21 (of 21 total)
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    • #272611
      Jojoe
      Participant

        And those who can’t charge at home get the discounted BP Pulse rate saving a massive 8p per KWh! You can get better rates by using Tesla open to all  or Fastned.

        #272621
        kezo
        Participant

          There has been studies around the world including Warwick university on V2G and the effects of degradation. The results are may/may not harm the performance, may have a neutral effect on the battery or does not significantly degrade the battery.

          However we all know that current battery cell chemistry including lithium degrade overtime and different charging scenario’s have a impact more than others, i.e fast vs slow.

          That said, I wouldn’t want to use what I consider my transport lifeline, as a portable powerplant for the grid or anyone else for that matter, other than myself.

          The grid, on a large scale should be adopting battery storage plants at windmill farms, so not to pay the operator of these farms to turn them off when demand is low or when the wind blows above a certain speed. The same goes for solar farms, where battery storage should form an important aspect of these farms. Recycled batteries would also play an important role in these area’s. Relying on every man and his EV is not the answer.

          The current number of Motability customers with EV’s is around 30,000,have non biderectional chargers. The cost to upgrade these customers would be a huge sum of money from a scheme perspective, with costs no doubt passed onto us. Of course its unlikely, as Motability have met their pledge of providing those that are able, with a facility to charge the vehicle. However, I guess they could offer a bi-directional charger as part of a non standard install.

          Home battery storage, with or without solar, along with 2 rate tariffs would IMO be the best way to go 🙂

           

           

          #272622
          kezo
          Participant

            And those who can’t charge at home get the discounted BP Pulse rate saving a massive 8p per KWh! You can get better rates by using Tesla open to all or Fastned.

            Those that can’t charge at home should get a choive charge cards or similar with an, equal value to a non standard install loaded onto it!

            #272664
            MFillingham
            Participant

              Here’s my thoughts on V2G:

               

              1 the technology is rather rare right now.  There will be a huge step between where we are now and need to be both in terms of vehicles and chargers.  Once technology has jumped that gap, it’ll be a while before Motability are in a position to either offer new chargers (capable of V2G) or the vehicles.

              2 I can’t see V2G chargers being cheap any time soon.  Given the efficiency advantages, they’re going to command a premium.  Will Motability pay that premium?

              3 V2G benefits the home supply at the expense of the vehicle’s stored capacity.  I’m struggling to see how that fits into Motability’s aim of helping disabled people stay mobile and independent.

              So, I’m very doubtful that V2G will be a no cost charger option for Scheme customers for a very long time.  I can’t see manufacturers offering these vehicles at bargain prices once the charging capabilities are available at mass pricing.

              If there’s anything Motability should be looking at it’s helping customers unable to charge at home to find solutions for getting cables to cars, whether that’s Kerbocharge or similar, the boom arms or something else.

              I like the idea of having a prepaid card option for charging as an alternative to the home charger, especially with the vast additional costs of public charging.

              I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
              I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.

              Mark

              #272667
              kezo
              Participant

                Considering Ohme chargers haven’t got solar integration, I can’t see them being in a hurry to offer mainstream V2G/H.

                Whou would belive the Nissan Leaf is one of very few cars, that are actually capable of V2G!

                #272682
                clappedout
                Participant

                  Hi Kezo,

                  great posts. Unlike you, I’m not an electrical engineer. My dad was, but all I learned from him was to employ a professional! In addition and not often discussed,  conversion from AC to DC and vice versa are not a free lunch as are the losses in transmission lines from the windmill at sea to the domestic grid near you. Talk of large scale battery storage – DC- such  as employed in South Australia and Queensland, is wishful thinking in the uk on cost, size and resource shortfalls. A new facility in Australia suffered a catastrophic thermal runaway, fire, explosion and clouds of highly toxic smoke. EVs inverter efficiency has been improved, as featured in the new VAG updates, but surely the V2g rectifier would not cope with household loads? According to experts who were discussing the quote for a EV battery replacement -$45000, ouch,-charging above 80% and repeated fast charging were detrimental to battery longevity and charge capacity deterioration, just as they are in an iPhone. This extra cycling if using V2g will surely result in increases to the current, environmentally disasterous, “ early retirement” of resource hungry EVs due to battery damage or deterioration.

                  Roll on solid state batteries. Are the new BYD sodium high density batteries an improvement?

                   

                   

                  roll on

                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by clappedout.
                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by clappedout.
                  • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by clappedout.
                  #272688
                  Rhodgie
                  Participant

                    @clappedout have you got any links to corroborate these stories about the catastrophic runaway in Australia and the experts discussing battery replacement.

                    Otherwise it’s just another piece of FUD being put out there for people to read. I think we need to be careful to be accurate in what we post.

                    #272693
                    Shaun
                    Participant

                      $45000 for an ev battery replacement?!! Were they just giving them a new car?

                      #272699
                      DumfriesDik
                      Participant

                        There has always been two tiers with Motability.

                        Those who can drive manual cars have enjoyed lower AP than those restricted to automatics often with much higher AP.

                         

                        VW ID3 Max is my DD

                        #272701
                        Brydo
                        Participant

                          Should Motability pay a premium for V2G, and V2L chargers, absolutely not. I was suggesting those who wanted one to pay for it themselves. The divide between those who have home charging and those who have not is already huge so no Motability should not pay more to worsen the situation.

                          If Motability offered to upgrade the charger at the customer’s expense that would be a different question.

                          A BEV with a huge battery is worth a lot, I am presently considering purchasing a 30kwh home battery that is likely to cost me £6,500ish to install. I would pay that for a V2G charger and the payback period, if prices stay similar to now, would likely be 6/7 years.

                          There are a few V2G chargers on the market but they are not common. As costs come down they will become the go-to chargers for the majority of people as having this type is a no-brainer.

                          As far as I can see the jury is out on degradation to the battery I don’t think there is enough information to decide.

                          There are a number of cars available just now with V2L and some with V2G capability and every major manufacturer are trialling V2G. It is only a matter of time before the majority are V2G-ready.

                          The role of the government in this cannot be overstated. We are charged £millions to balance the grid with gas when required. We spend £millions paying wind farm companies to turn off the farms when they produce excess power. Subsidising things that will reduce the instances of this must be a good thing and I see no better way of doing this than V2G charging.

                          The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
                          Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

                          #272705
                          Jojoe
                          Participant

                            There has always been two tiers with Motability. Those who can drive manual cars have enjoyed lower AP than those restricted to automatics often with much higher AP.

                            Nailed it! ? We always paid far more for a basic automatic in the past. We were not entitled to a grant and back in the day we also had to pay £700 for hand controls.

                            #272708
                            kezo
                            Participant

                              @clappedout have you got any links to corroborate these stories about the catastrophic runaway in Australia and the experts discussing battery replacement. Otherwise it’s just another piece of FUD being put out there for people to read. I think we need to be careful to be accurate in what we post.

                              I think we need to remember the UK and Europe in general is very much behind the curve compared to other countries with regards to battery storage etc. As such we are ignorant and often dismiss what we here as fake or find it difficult to process what is actual fact and what is fiction.

                              I think Clappedout is refering to the July 2021 a liquid coolant leak caused thermal runaway at the 450MWh Victorian big battery storage facility in Australia.

                              2022 a fatal house fire in New South Wales, was caused by a compeomised home battery storage, which caused the battery to go into thermal runaway, which caused it to leak toxix gasses before evenually exploding.

                              The commander for the South Australian Metropolitan Fire Service, described lithium-ion battery storage systems as an “emerging hazard to fire services around the nation”. It was on ABC news.

                              Similar events have happened in the US, with one such event that occured a short time before the Victorian fire Australia, Where power company AES was undertaking its own investigation of a similar event at a 10MW battery storage facility in Arizona.

                              The US fire departments have speciast blankets to allow for controlled burn in thermal runaway vehicles.

                              The risks are starting to appear in the UK with thermal runaway fires already being reported. I remember one event in Halifax I think it was being reported on the news and what I thing was a motability car going up in flames on the news.

                              Remember not so long back when iphones were batteries were overheating and going into thermal runaway!

                               

                              #272715
                              Rich44
                              Participant

                                As regards fire risk at the moment it’s a concern but just about every incident like that has happened outside of Europe Australia is a tricky one what are their regulations like and on top of that these things need cooling because they’re in an outrageously hot environment most of the time very different from here.

                                Also we now have Sodium batteries on the market they use the same factories and are evolving fast the first car using them is already on sale. These batteries cannot catch fire.

                                CATL are now producing solid state batteries they haven’t gone mass production yet but they’re close they have a capacity of 700wh per kg which is double the best standard battery right now. As they ate solid they cannot go into runaway and catch fire

                                I don’t think it’ll be long now before these 2 technologies supplanted regular lithium ion cells and all the danger drawbacks should go away and indeed range anxiety too and charging tines as they also charge at 500kw odd too

                                #272728
                                kezo
                                Participant

                                  A major drawback of sodium ion batteries, is their lower energy density compared to lithium-ion, which limits their ability to store as much energy in a given space equal to lithium ion batteries, which hinders their ability to be used in areas demanding high power and prolonged battery life, as they suffer short cycle life and poor reversibility, leading to large capacity loss and low cycling stability.

                                  Sodium ion batteries have potential safety and environmental issues, such as the release of HCN from some sodium ion battery chemistries. Whils’t they are considered safer as they are less prone to overheating however, sodium ion batteries typically have highly flamable liquid electrolytes, which can cause them to potentially catch fire or explode (People often forget a batter has both an Andode Cathode that excite elecrolytes) and are not to be confused with sodium-metal batteries, that have solid electrolytes but, tend to have a much more onferior performance. Sodium ion batteries still present environmental concerns, with substantial amount of resources, contributing to habitat destruction and pollution during extraction and processing. Their disposol also risks toxic chemical leaking into soil and water sources especially countries that have lax enviromental concerns.

                                  Sodium ion batteries charge quickly and will be more suited to mass battery storage farms where size isn’t so important.

                                  CATL have unveiled a type of semi-solid state product which utilise’s a highly conductive biomimetic condensed state electrolytes, with ultra-high energy density cathode materials anode and separator materials, will have an energy density of up to 500 Wh/kg. However it will be used primarily in the aviation sector. Not sure where Rich got 700 Wh/Kg from? However Chinese researchers at the Institute of Physics and Academy of Sciences in China have announced a 711Wh/Kg lithium battery, suggesting they have manufactured practical pouch type rechargeable lithium batteries by using an ultra thick high discharge capacity cathode with an areal capacity exceeding 10 mAh/cm2 and a lithium metal anode.

                                  #272733
                                  Rich44
                                  Participant

                                    Electric viking just did a video on it it was about CATL solid state batteries there’s no electrolyte to burn as such in those

                                    Historically Na batteries were a lot lower capacity and more fragile but recent breakthroughs have improved them, highest capacity 18650 are 1300mAh at the moment compared to 2500mAh or so for lithium but progress is snowballing with them and best part is they use the same production lines just switch ingredients out.

                                    Also the charge/discharge rates and voltages are very different to lithium so you can’t just use them as a drop in replacement as such

                                    I’ve seen a lot of info on battery tech recently the last info I saw was CATL I think and their sodium batteries exceed safety rules at least fwiw, more so than lithium including directly penetrating the cell at least what I saw anyways.

                                    Sodium cells are much lower capacity but over the past few years they’ve increased it hugely and now more work than ever is ongoing I expect eventually it’ll exceed lithium or at least match it. Regardless even if not we can’t use lithium forever.

                                    Sodium batteries also don’t suffer at low temps, at – 20c they’ll perform exactly the same as at higher temps up to 50C or so I think it said.

                                    Can’t comment on any issues as such because the ones I’ve seen are claiming to not behave that way so whether someones lying or that’s a different technology I dunno

                                    I’ve also seen a US firm that use sea water to make batteries so they literally can’t catch fire as they’re salt water based although those were super low capacity but very easy to scale

                                    I’ve also seen that Catl has also built a battery with sodium and lithium cells to give best of both I guess be interesting to see

                                    Oh the sodium cells can charge very very fast too

                                    I have A levels in chemistry, physics and biology so I’ve always been super interested in science stuff I watched Tomorrows World from age 4 or so and my mum used to catch my watching OU broadcasts back when they used to not broadcast tv during the day (remember that, test cards etc Omg my age lol).

                                    Because of my situation I have a lot pc time where I can’t do much but watch videos, read articles and keep an eye on research not that I’m an expert of much but I do keep my ear to the ground.

                                    Catl obviously believe there’s a future in it as they’re investing billions building a factory for sodium cells and batteries. I’ve always been fascinated with electric vehicles ever since my best friend had a C5 then it was various electric kids ride ons etc then electric bikes and of course de restricting it, even managed to luck up an original citroen made electric DS kids ride in car although that uses lead acid lol.

                                    I’d be really interested if anyone has info they’ve seen and want to share it’s so cool to see

                                    #272743
                                    clappedout
                                    Participant

                                      Thanks Keso and Rich 44  – like you, I did Chemistry, Physics and Maths A levels, but Chemistry very hazy now!  I also have a lot of time on my hands and like to stay informed with tech, a hifi  nerd, sadly. I have no agenda against EV, but was trained throughout my career to recognise threats and limitations, however unlikely.  Lithium batteries were banned from cargo on passenger carrying aircraft many years ago. Sadly, subsequent loss of two cargo 747 s emphasised the caution. At the moment, sales to private buyers have slumped here, in the USA where ford have put some future models on the back burner and even Germany, with sales of Vw EVs down 25%. Voting with their feet. With the financial incentives to Motability from manufacturers in order to meet arbitrary political targets, I would definitely consider one if suitable. AP £2k for a £50 k EV vs £8000 for a £50k Honda crv or a Rav 4 is a no brainer. Handing it back after 3 years mitigates the depreciation, insurance and battery longevity worries of informed private buyers. Thanks again for the comprehensive and informative replies.

                                      #272748
                                      clappedout
                                      Participant

                                        @clappedout have you got any links to corroborate these stories about the catastrophic runaway in Australia and the experts discussing battery replacement. Otherwise it’s just another piece of FUD being put out there for people to read. I think we need to be careful to be accurate in what we post.

                                        a different video from the one I saw, but!

                                        #272749
                                        Rich44
                                        Participant

                                          The info I had was that it was a government type industrial commercial mass power storage site that operates very differently from the way a normal install would with water cooling etc didn’t watch that link but that was the one I heard about. Only thing I thought of with that one is that they were really pushing high energy density plus add on the incredibly high daytime temps they were exposed to and a failure anywhere with cooling and there would be big trouble.

                                          Thing us that we often overlook is a lot of this stuff is still quite experimental hell rapid charging batteries safely is still relatively new as are our better understanding of how to run BMS on these chemistries. Throwing a ton of these on a site hooked up to the grid well it’s not exactly a mature technology and this is the result.

                                          I appreciate its a bit of a phoney comparison but how many rockets did nasa blow up before they even got off the launchpad. Were kinda I that tine now and what’s worse is we’ve got hundreds or thousand of companies all doing their own thing.

                                          We need another John B Goodenough he’s a real hero of mine that guy. Nobel prize at 97 years old, what a guy

                                          #272752
                                          Brydo
                                          Participant

                                            We seem to have gone a tad off-topic ? very interesting nonetheless ?

                                            The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
                                            Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

                                            #272753
                                            kezo
                                            Participant

                                              Electric viking just did a video on it it was about CATL solid state batteries there’s no electrolyte to burn as such in those

                                              Well that explains it ?

                                              However, CATL does not have a solid state battery but, rather a semi solid battery, just as other manufacturers do.

                                              As with all semi solid state batteries, they have both solid and liquid or gel electrolyte component combined, which improves the electrolytes contact area with the electrode.

                                              CATL’s latest condensed battery, is a breakthrough in condensed battery technology employs a highly conductive electrolyte gel that significantly reduces weight and condensed matter to act as its elecrolyte and innovative ande materials.

                                              https://www.powerelectronicsnews.com/catls-condensed-battery-technology-enables-the-electrification-of-passenger-aircrafts/

                                              In 2021 CATL first generation of sodium-ion battery with an energy density of 160 Wh/kg.

                                              In 2022  CATL unveiled its 2ndd generation Cell to Pack Qilin battery (LFP/NMC) with the highest integration efficiency in the world, at 255wh/kg, which it has started mass production this March.

                                              CATL, BYD along with other Chinese automakers and battery giants formed an alliance called the China All-Solid-State Battery Collaborative Innovation Platform. Their goal is to develp and commercialise all solid state batteries.

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              #272777
                                              Brydo
                                              Participant

                                                Some info on charging prices away from home.

                                                The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe.
                                                Anything i post over three lines long please assume it is an article lol.

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