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I am currently shortlisting SUV’s for our upcoming change. As it stands, nothing ticks every box, so we might extend and then pounce at some point in the future should should something better suddenly appear. We currently have a diesel but are now retired and our mileage has dropped (even excluding lockdown restrictions) and will be around 10k a year. My wife is keen that we move away from diesel next time. A pure electric vehicle wouldn’t work for us. We are lucky that we can garage our cars overnight, so charging isn’t an issue, but the range is. Whilst most of our journeys from home are around 30 mile round trips, we also do a lot of UK holidays, including touring ones, and we would want a car with a good range of at least 400 miles.
Petrol is the obvious choice, but I have noticed an increasing range of hybrid vehicles these days. I must confess that I don’t know much about them, but a former colleague had a Lexus RX300 hybrid as a company car and said that he felt it was a gimmick, in that the electric range was minimal and it spent the overwhelming majority of time running on a very thirsty petrol engine, so mpg was appalling! Technology has moved on a lot since then and I am particularly interested in understanding a bit more about Plug-in hybrids (PHEV’s) as I am thinking that they could be a good solution, in that our short local journeys can be undertaken on electric power but our holidays can be with the petrol engine, so no range anxiety issues or hassle having to find and make prolonged charging stops. On that basis, I would like to ask those of you with a lot more knowledge of these technologies some, what I am sure are daft, questions!
1) Power Output – I have noticed that a number of PHEV cars, and other hybrids, have quite high power outputs. However, I have also noticed that the power output is derived by adding together the petrol engine plus the electric motor so, to take a made up example, the 250bhp might be a 150bhp petrol engine plus a 100bhp electric motor. My question is this. In what conditions is the car actually producing the full power output of 250bhp? In my example, if the car is running in pure electric mode, is the power output just 100bhp and when running in petrol only is it just 150bhp? Presumably the 250bhp is only when both the petrol engine and electric motor are running together, but the electric motors only have a range of around 30 miles so does that mean that you only have the full power output for very short periods?
2) Charging PHEV’s – As it would be our intention to only charge the car at home, so that we can do our local 30 mile round trips on electric power and longer journeys on petrol, would the basic 3 pin plug in a regular socket method, charging the car in the garage overnight, be sufficient? In other words, no need for a wall charger, additional leads etc. We tend to only go out once a day, so overnight charging wouldn’t be a problem and it wouldn’t need topping up during the day.
3) Benefits versus compromises – With the limited research I have done so far, it would appear that PHEV’s have some negatives. They all seem to be 2WD (whilst not essential, we prefer 4WD SUV’s). Some have reduced boot space (an issue for us as my wife is a wheelchair user), but where is that space lost? Is it just under the boot floor? The extra weight caused by the batteries can compromise handling. Finally, many seem to have CVT transmissions, which don’t get great reviews as they can sound strained compared to a conventional auto. Have I missed anything? Do you feel that the pros outweigh the cons?
4) Is there anything else that I have missed that I should take into consideration?
Thanks in advance for your help.
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1. The power output maximum would be used when accelerating away with your foot to the floor, probably not something you’ll do often unless you’re accelerating on the slip road of a motorway/dual-carriageway.
2. An overnight charge will easily fill the battery on any of the PHEVs available via motability.
3. I think the Mini PHEV has a system that powers all 4 wheels under certain conditions but it’s not a massive car. The batteries in a Kia Niro PHEV eat into the boot space a lot (but it’s not a CVT). Test drive will tell you whether you can live with a CVT.
4. PHEVs on the scheme are expensive at the moment, a couple of years ago I was all set to go for the Kia Niro PHEV & it was around the £1000 mark, then it left the scheme for a while & I was left looking for other options.
5. Oscarmax will hopefully be along to talk about his Outlander.
Thanks gothitjulie. Re the power output, do you notice a difference when the car is only running on one type of propulsion (i.e. electric OR petrol), as opposed to when both are running in tandem? I’m trying to establish if the power output is misleading as it relies on both working together, which would only happen in certain circumstances.
If you restict the mode to electric only you’ll notice it being underpowered, but if driving it in a normal mode where the car decided which drive type it’ll appear completely seamless. Remember the total output of the electric motor in a PHEV isn’t like driving a BEV where the motor will be much more powerful.
In winter you’ll probably find that the engine will start up & run to power the heater, it certainly does that in the Niro PHEV.
As Gothitjulie says, you’ll rarely use the max output of the vehicle, my BMW (Diesel) in sports mode brings up to digital dials showing BHP output and Torque output, it’s also 4 wheel drive. It’s hard to use the maximum 190hp and 400nm of torque available for more than a few seconds as you’re up to speed so quickly.
I also think if you went the PHEV route, you’d adapt to more gentle acceleration, the power is there if needed, but the natural inclination once the novelty of the power wears off is to be gentle on the right foot and save the battery.
Sadly PHEV”S are pricy now that they don’t attract the government grant, but some of the non plugin hybrids are now starting to make great strides in fuel efficiency, the Niro seems capable of around 60mpg, although probably too small for your needs, the level 4 trim though is amazingly well speced. The new Qashqai hybrid looks like it might be a great idea too, basically, an EV powered by a petrol engine!
Previous Motability Cars
2006 - 2009 Skoda Superb VR6 2.0tdi
2009 - 2012 Citroen C5 2.0tdi VTR Nav
2012 - 2015 Nissan Qashqai 1.5dci tekna
2015 - 2018 Ford Kuga 2.0tdi Titanium X
2018 - 2021 BMW 220d X drive 2 Series Active Luxury
2021 - 2023 Hyundai Kona Electric Premium SE
2023 - Hyundai Kona Electric UltimateI think Julie has answered most of your questions, however the PHEV claimed 30 miles range is nearer 16 miles in the winter with the heating even with ICE unit running, we leased our PHEV when the AP was only £1699, at £2999 we would have not considered it, if we did not tow a 1500kg caravan approximately 2000 miles a year we would have gone for a full EV.
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
I think that’s the key thing Glos Guy, as Oscarmax says, the maximum claimed range of most PHEVs is around 30 miles, and in many circumstances will be much lower.
For example, when you fully charge an XC40 PHEV, the range readout says 28 miles, but immediately after setting off it drops to 18 to 24 miles.
I learned this from the XC40 forum be where numerous owners have reported the same thing.
Have also read reviews of other PHEVs doing the same.
Only you can decide whether a PHEV is suitable for your 30 mile round trips, but it sounds to me as though the engine would be kicking in regularly.
Hi Dudes, it does not work quite like like that:
Our PHEV in the summer does a regular 32-34 miles in the summer, however the fast you go go the less the range, on the motorway at 55 mph 30/31 at 60 it drops to nearer 28 miles.
Lithium batteries tend to be most efficient at 25 degrees C as temperature drop so does some of it efficiency, off the top of my head a % per degree drop i.e @ ) degrees a 25% drop, However as the EV/PHEV regenerative energy system kicks in and the batteries are put underload the batteries should warm up.
Once the batteries deplete to the 80% the regenerative charging system kicks in, below 50% the system is more efficient to regenerate.
The Outlander PHEV has electric motor on both front 80kW and rear 90kW axle feeding energy as opposed to Volvo/VW which only has a single motor built into the gearbox.
Both Toyota/Mitsubishi (plus the latest Nissan Hybrid) ICE powers a generator/batteries to electric motors, were as Volvo/VW use a conventional transmission transaxle.
Sorry I cannot explain better my brain is a bit fudged at the moment, the info is in my head hopefully Julie and Brydo can explain it better.
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
Thank you all so much for the very helpful responses, which have been very useful in plugging some of my knowledge gaps. I have also now managed to find a few useful video reviews on YouTube of the Volvo XC40 Recharge, the Ford Kuga PHEV and the forthcoming VW Tiguan PHEV (which isn’t on the scheme as it isn’t in the UK yet, but given the normal Tiguans popularity amongst Motability customers, plus the fact that the XC40 recharge has appeared, could well be in the future).
I shall keep an open mind, but based on everything that I have learned today, I am now thinking that a PHEV may not be for us. In real world driving, the electric range seems to be a lot less than quoted and the impressive power outputs that are quoted are only delivered when both the electric motors and petrol engines are both working together. I had rather hoped that on the days when we are only doing short journeys we could drive a 250bhp electric only engine, but I now realise that this isn’t the case.
As others have said, there is quite a price premium for PHEV’s and in return for what now appears to be fairly minimal benefits, you sacrifice other things such as handling, 4WD and, in some cases, proper autos and boot space. On that basis, I think we might stick with a conventional (petrol or diesel) for now but, as I say, I will keep an open mind as the technology is evolving all the time and, as I said initially, we might delay our renewal given that no car ticks every box for us at present. Thanks again all.
Have considered the Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 both petrol hybrid with excellent reported fuel consumptions
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
Have considered the Honda CRV and Toyota RAV4 both petrol hybrid with excellent reported fuel consumptions
Hi Oscarmax. Yes, I did consider both of those. Neither has great reviews and unfortunately they are both missing a few features that I would like that can’t even be chosen as options. Shame as they are both a good size and I bought a new RAV4 in 2002 for my wife (before she became eligible for Motability) and we kept it for 10 years as it was so good! The Honda does have the benefit of 4WD but they are both blighted with poor CVT transmissions.
I have a honda civic sport with the cvt and imo it’s not as poor as some make out and i have no issues at all roasting people when needed. I was put off abit because of what i had heard about cvt’s but after the test drive, i was taken back as to how smooth it was.. Now i have the car I am more impressed at how fast the car is when you need it to be and no lag at all.. Personally i have always hated auto’s and preffered a manual and my last car was a golf with the dsg as i can no longer do the clutch.
I do think it’s always worth having a test drive if the car meets your needs as most reviewer’s just don’t like an auto whatever it is over the manual.. But when that’s all you can drive and it’s not an option, as i said it’s worth checking out for yourself..
Hi Rox – that’s a very fair point and, of course, it’s incredibly frustrating at present not being able to even go and look at cars, let alone drive them. I must confess that I haven’t seen reviews of any of the SUV’s we have shortlisted where the reviewer has said that a manual would be better than an auto, but those with CVT transmissions seem to be criticised as they sound strained at higher revs. I don’t like the look of the CR-V, especially from the rear, nor am I massively keen on the interior, but I wouldn’t rule out a car on looks alone. I don’t like the rear of the Volvo XC40 either, but it gets generally good reviews. We looked at the RAV4 when we last changed but felt that the interior seemed cheap and plasticky compared to the other cars on our shortlist and the in car tech is very poor, according to the reviews. The great shame is that I really enjoy looking at and driving different cars, which makes the current situation all the more frustrating!
Ive never read a positive review of a CVT transmission and thats going back to the mid eighties. My mates Fiesta CVT went crazy and noisy when asked to accelerate swiftly, then the acceleration would come a few seconds later. Every review, to this day, says the same about CVT’s. For that reason, Im out. And Im with you on that GlosGuy.
It depends on the CVT, I have had several and they vary. Gearboxes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, a good CVT is always better than bad, hesitant jerky conventional gearbox, some are notchy, some are smooth. You can’t generalise. You need to drive it to find out. There are different types of CVT, its not as simple as is portrayed. The following is a review online.
Some of the best CVT-type automatics we’ve sampled to date include cars from Honda (Jazz, City, CR-V, Civic, HR-V, Odyssey), Subaru (Forester, WRX), and Toyota (C-HR, Corolla Altis, Vios, Yaris).
The CVT-type automatic fitted to these cars offer smooth acceleration and a quiet operation, largely due to the implementation of a torque converter to send power to the driven wheels.
I have to admit prior to test driving our current Outlander PHEV we were a bit dubious, especially after reading all the reviews on line. The test drive could have not been further from the truth, it is a slightly different experience but we like it.
Unfortunately I have suffered a brain injury and occasionally I get confused and often say the wrong thing.
My 1st ever car was a 1980’s honda accord it had a 1.6 engine and pushed out 68hp, the 1.5l civic i have now has a 1.5l engine and pumps out 182bhp. So we can see how far technology has come in 40 years.
To just dismiss all cvts imo is a mistake and for some of us on the scheme choice is limited and needing an auto also limits that further.
I was very skeptical when i found out the civic was a cvt (after hearing the usual stuff about them) but on test driving the car, wow it was super smooth and pulled instantly and now driving it as much as i can since june. It’s a joy to drive.
I was using sport mode with the paddle shifters and I got wheel spin changing gears from 1st to 2nd and into 3rd from the pull the car has. I am ultra impressed with the car and the cvt and as sif said it doe’s very much depend which it is, not every marriage of an engine and drive train is the same and is why i would say if a car meets your specs then test drive it and see.. I have test drove manual cars and wanted to return as soon as i drove them out of the dealership.
For me i need a car with adaptive cruise control and low speed follow etc and it must come as standard, i don’t add extra’s on top of the ap, so that discounted alot of cars this time when selecting cars. Both of the cars that made my shortlist where both cvt’s but i only test drove the honda as the other when looking at it was just to small a car..
So sad there no test drives right now, and i dosuggest waiting until you can before ordering, whatever the car is. Sure this lockdown will be over at some point and alot of us just ain’t driving far at all. so really glad i got mein just after the 1st loockdown ended in june, i was due to exchange back in april and it would not of been the same if it was just sitting outside, like it is now. When i first got it I could enjoy it and drive it.. now i find the smallest excuse to drive it and when i put my footdown it makes me grin from ear to ear and it’s a cvt.
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