Could Prime Minister Boris Johnson break up the UK?

This topic contains 552 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Avatar Wigwam 39 minutes ago.

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #83405 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Article

    The Scottish Conservative (and Unionist) party has enjoyed something of resurgence in recent years under the energetic leadership of Ruth Davidson.

    The party’s opponents are convinced that Boris Johnson as prime minister could put an end to all that – and could even put an end to the union between Scotland the rest of the UK.

    It’s true that Mr Johnson could hardly be more different from the down to earth, plain speaking and Remain-voting Ms Davidson. The two are not friends and have vehemently disagreed before.

    Some observers like to speculate that Boris will appear to Scottish voters to be the very epitome of the upper-class English ruling caste that Scots so dislike. But policy may well prove to be more important than personality.

    Mr Johnson appeared to have a weak grasp of the dynamics of devolution when he proposed tax changes that take no account of the fact that income tax rates in Scotland are set by the Scottish Parliament.

    But since then he has promised Scottish Tory MPs he will set up a “union unit” inside No 10 to check every policy. If he knows what he doesn’t know, then maybe he can avoid these gaffes as PM.

    It’s Brexit that may be his undoing, in so many ways. In Remain-voting Scotland, his problem is that the idea of a no deal Brexit is far less palatable than it is in the rest of the UK. The harder the Brexit Boris delivers, the more the Tory party in Scotland could suffer.

    If Prime Minister Johnson [he will officially take on the role this Wednesday] pursues a Brexit policy at odds with what most voters in Scotland would like to see, then it’s possible they may change their minds about whether remaining part of the UK is in their best interests. Some recent polling evidence suggests as many as 60% of voters could vote “yes” to independence if we leave the EU with no deal.

    In the end it may not be the precise details of any Brexit deal that stokes desire for independence – or indeed the character of any individual politician – but a sense that Scotland has different aspirations from the rest of the UK, which can’t be reconciled within the current union.

    If Mr Johnson wants to keep the kingdom united, he will need to take care not fan those flames.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

Viewing 25 replies - 26 through 50 (of 552 total)
  • Author
    Replies
  • #83694 Reply
    Avatar
    fwipperie
    Participant

    In due course when Brexit is sorted it may be on interest on a bleak Monday in November to review and reflect on these threads and see who, if anyone predicted the outcome correctly.

    #83811 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    fwipperie i would bet every last penny i have that it won`t be you lol.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #83812 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Boris Johnson’s arrival as PM greeted with alarm, scepticism and appeal for engagement from the disabled.

    Disabled people and their organisations have reacted to Boris Johnson becoming the new prime minister with alarm and scepticism, but also an appeal for “honest engagement”.

    Johnson (pictured) has already concerned many opponents – both within his party and among opposition parties – by filling key ministerial posts with Brexit-supporters and right-wingers such as Dominic Raab as foreign secretary and Priti Patel as home secretary.

    And although Johnson mentioned the need to “fix the crisis in social care once and for all” in his first speech as prime minister yesterday (Wednesday), he mentioned only older people – like many ministers and other politicians before him – and ignored working-age disabled people, even though about half of local authority spending on social care is on working-age adults.

    Johnson said he had “a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve”, but there will be a suspicion that this is merely the much-delayed adult social care green paper promised by health and social care secretary Matt Hancock.

    Hancock, who has kept his post under the new prime minister, has already suggested that his green paper is unlikely to include a definitive plan for how to reform adult social care funding, but instead will simply “bring together the debate… behind a direction of travel where we can make progress”.

    Boris Johnson’s arrival as PM greeted with alarm, scepticism and appeal for engagement

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84210 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Lib Dem’s have won, Boris bounce what Boris bounce?

    No working majority where does that leave the Tories.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84211 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Looks like the Tories have a working majority of 1, sorry for my poor arithmetic.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84217 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    I wonder what the Labour Party will say about their performance.

    Share of the vote:

    2017 17.7%

    2019 5.3%

    Labourlist is saying: “it seems that the Labour vote was squeezed with Labour Leavers going to the Brexit Party and Labour Remainers going to the Lib Dems”

    Maybe when we get past Brexit, normal politics will be resumed!

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Avatar Wigwam.
    #84227 Reply
    Avatar
    Mike 700
    Participant

    I shouldn’t read too much into the actual result Brydo, as the
    LibDems almost always do well in bi-elections, only to fail in a General Election, and as many have already pointed out in the media today, they were expected to thrash the Tories, whereas the Boris Bounce has definitely and substantially reduced their anticipated vote share!

    Remember also, that the Tory vote was split by UKIP and the Brexit Party, unlike the others – as an example Plaid Cymru agreed not to field a candidate so as not to weaken the anti – Tory vote!

    So, like him or not, Boris has definitely bounced the Tory vote.

    #84232 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Wigwam hopefully this result will help those wanting to get rid of Corbyn to be able to kick him out..

    Mike of course there where things going on in the background and, if you want, you can say there was a Boris bounce, but the fact is any Boris bounce was not enough to stop the Tories from losing the seat. I don’t have the facts in front of me, but to turn a 6000 or 8000+ majority into a 1400+ defeat isn’t any sort of bounce. This is likely to be as good as it gets for BJ and it still wasn’t enough.

    Everyone knew the other parties where abstaining to allow the Lib Dems to win, so this fact, together with any BJ bounce should have been enough to get all Tory voters out to vote, but it wasn’t.

    So the question is why?

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84234 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    I’m going to say putting up a candidate who the voters had already recalled for being convicted of fiddling his expenses didn’t help.

    #84237 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    I agree.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84242 Reply
    Avatar
    Mike 700
    Participant

    It was a “very close” result Brydo, in a by-election in which the Lib Dems were expected to romp home , but really only scraped in “.

    Last week and previous to that, the Tory polling showed a massive drop in support, which Bouncy Boris nearly turned around, despite his candidate being kicked out as an MP !

    Jane Dodds (Liberal Democrats): 43% (+14 on 2017)
    Christopher Davies (Conservative): 28% (-21)
    Des Parkinson (The Brexit Party): 20% (+20)
    Tom Davies (Labour): 8% (-10)
    Lady Lily Pink (Monster Raving Loony Party): 1% (+1)
    Liz Phillips (UKIP): 1% (n/c)
    Fieldwork: 10-18 July

    There were no Green or Plaid candidates as the backed the LibDems,
    But Jo Swinson denied the party had “played” the system by striking a deal with Plaid Cymru and the Greens.

    Some people are saying that the Tories ‘crashed out’, – but they didn’t actually, they lost (and second doesn’t count of course,) yes, and they will have to live with the consequences , but not lost as dramatically as some would like us to believe, and I will bet that in a General Election following our EU Exit, Bouncy Boris and the Tories will not have to worry about rebels and Remainers and majorities, Boris will be unassailable for 5 years!

    #84244 Reply
    Avatar
    fwipperie
    Participant

    Poor result Labour. Corbyn’s time nearly up? I wonder if Boris will call election November if Corbyn still in place? A decent result Liberals, not a great one.

    #84245 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Mike I think you live in a fantasy land or maybe a Tory bubble, BJ will be the last PM of the UK if we crash out of the EU, which wont be a bad thing,for England and Scotland. There is however little chance of the UK crashing out as parliament wont allow it. If he pursues this line of attack, which I actually agree with apart from the actual crashing out, his government will be forced into a General Election which they will lose IMO.

    BJ isn’t a maverick he is all bluster and no substance, he has no eye for detail his approach is that if he says it, it will happen but a lot of thought has to be put into actually achieving anything worth having.

    He has surrounded himself with like minded right wingers so where does he get any prospective. Half of the country voted to stay in the EU but he has cabinet ministers urging him to bypass parliament by Proroguing. Now how is this constitutional?

    Remember all the marches and demonstrations are being held by remainers, how do you think they will react if parliament is bypassed?

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84246 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    Brydo, if the UK leaves without a deal, and it must by law unless the EU offer something acceptable to the majority of MPs by the end of October, then deals will shortly follow because both European and UK business will demand it.

    If you are suggesting this will precipitate a break-up of the UK, I’d like to understand how.

    #84249 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Wigwam leaving the Eu without a deal would almost certainly result in an independence vote in Scotland. Over 60% of the Scottish people voted to stay in the Eu so the suggestion up here is that leaving the Eu without a deal would be the catalyst for a majority of Scots to vote for independence.

    Im not sure you appreciate how difficult it is for Scots to be ruled by Tory Toffs. We are, by nature, left wing people so for a government like this to be in charge is very difficult for us to accept. We however should never be in a position to tell English people what is best for them but we are in position where that is exactly what is happening to us.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84257 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant
    1. Yes, 60% voted that the UK should remain in the EU but only 45% previously voted for Scottish independence.  How would you propose Scotland would get another referendum to make another choice? If  you did achieve another vote, and won independence, would that be on the basis of joining the EU and accepting the Euro?  Would Scotland be able to satisfy the convergence criteria given it would lose the £25 billion a year subsidy arising from the Barnett formula? You might not like the Conservatives, but in a democracy we can have something else.  Try voting against an EU policy or law, you can’t. That’s why we’re leaving. Or can Scotland be a self-governing independent state?
    #84258 Reply
    Avatar
    Mike 700
    Participant

    Brydo, I really enjoy debating with you so please don’t take any of my posts wrong way, I am not a Tory and do not live in any political party’s ‘bubble’, nor , as I have said previously, am I a particular fan of BoJo, but I do admit ( proudly) to a lean to starboard, and also as stated previously, would never ever and I really mean never ever vote Labour- no sir, I am just a realist?

    The fact is , as confirmed by the expert pollster John Curtice (?spelling) that the Brecon result is in fact a triumph for BoJo, albeit only in terms of increasing the vote from ‘rock bottom’ to almost a win, in just a week or so of being elected, which if transferred to a General Election would invariably wipe out the opposition, and don’t forget, that there was an election pact between the Libs , Plaid, and that lonely Green Party voter to go against the Tories.

    Also , less than half of the country ie, a clear minority voted to remain, whereas more than half of the country , therefore a clear majority voted to leave,
    Ie 48-52% which Remainers find unacceptable, yet funnily enough, find 43.5 to 39% in Brecon perfectly acceptable , cause their side won , only in the U.K. eh?

    As far as Scotland not getting the Government it voted for, ie a Labour Government, well it certainly had its own way in 14 General Elections , where Scotland voted for the party which formed a Government, and only in six did Scotland vote Labour yet get a Conservative Government

    In 1945 Scotland voted Labour ( 47.9% ) & got a Labour Government in Westminster.
    in 1950 Scotland voted Labour ( 46.2% ) & got a Labour Government
    In 1951 Scotland voted Conservative ( 48.6%) & got a Conservative Government
    In 1955 voted Tory ( 50.1% ). & got Tory
    In 1959 voted Tory (49.2% ) & got Tory
    In 1964 voted Labour ( 47.3% ) & got Labour
    In 1966 voted Labour (49.9%) & got Labour
    In 1970 voted Labour ( 46.4%) & got Tory – the first time it had happened
    In1974 voted Labour ( 36.6% ) & got Labour
    Later in 74 voted Labour ( 36.3% ) & got Labour.
    In 1979, 1983, 1987, 1992 voted Labour & got Tory – 4 more
    In 1997, 2002 & 2005 voted Labour & got Labour
    2010 voted Labour voted & got Tory

    Btw the Tories in England voted for Tory governments & got Labour Government I4 Times

    #84261 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Mike you are correct that Scotland forced a labour government on you and that is unacceptable in my opinion, absolutely unacceptable, another reason England would be better off without the Scots. It is clear however from your info that the Scots and the English are at opposite ends of the left right spectrum something I have said on many occasions and something that’s likely to get worse, if that’s the right word.

    Yes again a majority voted to leave the EU, forgive me for rounding up lol.

    Wigwam this is not an England Scotland thing, just a Scotland thing. I have no anti English agenda just a pro Scotland agenda.

    Joining the eu, if we decide to and if they accept us.

    Taking the euro as our currency, if we decide to and they accept us.

    Scotland as a self governing independent state, absolutely, you’ve no idea how arrogant that statement was wigwam.

    25£billion to keep to yourselves what’s keeping you from forcing us to leave?

    What does England get out of this relationship you are obviously so superior to the scots giving us hand outs and running our affairs.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84263 Reply
    Avatar
    POPS
    Moderator

    It’s a good debate guys, let’s make sure we keep it friendly because I’m enjoying this.

    #84264 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    Brydo, I don’t think anything in my posts suggests anyone is superior. I’m just trying to understand why you think Scotland is somehow so different to the rest of the UK that you think it should be either an independent democratic state or a part of the undemocratic EU (not clear which you prefer).  And from there, how you would expect Scotland achieve what you would ptefer.

    Like it or not, the wealth creation in the UK is mostly in England. How does divorcing yourself from that wealth benefit the people living in Scotland?

    #84265 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Pops I have nothing but friendly intentions its not in my nature to get angry and I’ve said before this subject should have nothing to get angry about. If England turned around tomorrow and said they didn’t want to be tied to Scotland and northern island then I would wish them well.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84266 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>And I’m sure if Scotland didn’t want to tied to the rest of the UK, I would also wish you well.  But why?</p>

    #84267 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Wigwam the nuts and bolts of independence will sort themselves out but, although important, money is not the main driver for me. So getting independence is the first priority but if the Scottish people reject it then I will accept that, no problem.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

    #84269 Reply
    Avatar
    Wigwam
    Participant

    Brydo, perhaps it’s not easy to articulate, and you don’t have to explain, but I still don’t understand what you want independence from, by which I mean what will you gain?  If it’s not money then we can avoid the argument about whether Scotland would be richer or poorer.  How do you see a Scotland independent of the UK being different?

    #84273 Reply
    Avatar
    Brydo
    Participant

    Wigwam as I said before there is no argument here not about independence not about money.

    As far as I am concerned it’s about being able to make decisions within our own country. It’s about deciding whether or not we join the Eu, it’s about deciding things like raising VAT or not. It’s about deciding who we let fish our waters, what we do with all the natural resources we have including what we have left of our gas and oil.

    It’s about deciding

    benefits and social security immigration

    foreign policy

    employment

    broadcasting

    trade and industry

    snd a others.

    The only person who got all his work done by Friday was Robinson Crusoe

Viewing 25 replies - 26 through 50 (of 552 total)
Reply To: Could Prime Minister Boris Johnson break up the UK?

You can use BBCodes to format your content.
Your account can't use Advanced BBCodes, they will be stripped before saving.

Your information: