Could Prime Minister Boris Johnson break up the UK? Mark 2

This topic contains 445 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by  POPS 3 weeks, 5 days ago.

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    Topic
  • #91160

    Brydo

    As fwippers said we need a new thread and here it is.

Viewing 25 replies - 51 through 75 (of 445 total)
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  • #91531

    Wigwam
    Participant

    I think he knows he won’t.

    #91532

    Colin
    Participant

    My 2c on a second referendum is, it’d be a colossal case of shooting yourself in the foot. The existence of a 2nd referendum would mean that the first referendum didn’t count effectively. If the first one didn’t count, then why would a second one irrespective of the result. Remainers would just moan and demand a 3rd one if they lost for a second time, and Leavers would say “Ok then, well when Leave won, in the end, the referendum didn’t count, so does this mean the 2nd referendum where Remain won also won’t count?”

    I know this is replying to a post 3 pages ago but I had a busy few days looking at cars n stuff so only just read it.

    I for one, have no problems stating I personally voted to leave and with the way the EU has apparently treated the UK with regards the leave process, I am more resolute in my desire to leave than I was 3 1/2 years ago.

    #91537

    Brydo

    Colin any second referendum, if there is one, would need to be legally binding and not advisory as the last one.

    I respect everyone’s right to vote the way they did, but I firmly believe we know much more about leaving than we did three years ago. You only need to look at this thread to see there are leavers with a deal, leavers without a deal, remainers who could live with a deal and remainers who can’t.

    The question in any future referendum would be crucial.

    At this time the opposition are suggesting they may support a deal delivered by BJ but only if it is put to the general public in an accept this deal or remain in the Eu referendum.

    On this thread I am fairly confident this would not be acceptable to Mike 700, wigwam or fwippers, it probably would be acceptable to Pops and myself.

    So glad to see you getting involved in the thread and in the mean time hold onto your hat next week is set to be explosive ?.

    #91566

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Yes, we do know a lot more, Brydo. We know the EU is intransigent, incapable of reform and heading towards become a technocratic empire with its own army which will accept no democratic attempt to prevent it.

     

    #91568

    fwippers
    Participant

    A lot of people say we know a lot more now (almost exclusively remainer’s). All we know is we have over 500 MP’s who were firmly opposed to leaving and have done all they can to try and thwart the leaving process together with a section of the media and civil service. As pointed out if the vote 3 years ago had been 52/48 remain what concessions would the leavers have got? None. We would have continued as before but the “losing” 48% feel that because it was a “close” vote there should be concessions. I’m in favour of a sensible deal but “remain” needs to accept it lost the argument and the referendum. Any 2nd referendum will be toxic and probably undemocratic.

    #91574

    Brydo

    The reality of this shambles is that there is no consensus in the House of Commons for any deal. The ERG, BJ and his cronies, labour ( what ever that is now), the SNP (Indy ref 2 a requirement), Lib Dem’s (trying to take up ground no other party recognises) and the DUP.

    How can any deal be done when every party has its own agenda?

    PUT IT BACK TO THE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW ITS THE ONLY SOLUTION.

    #91575

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Because the main political parties said they would carry out the will of the people as decided in the referendum. Having another referendum let’s the politicians get away with it.  Didn’t Barnier do well?

    #91577

    Brydo

    Discussions continue at pace to agree a deal that is already agreed. Yes Mrs May’s deal was already agreed but BJ needs to make it look that he has thrashed out a new improved snatched victory from the jaws of defeat deal. In reality it is Mrs May’s deal in all but name.

    There could be many, those with BJ right wing blinkers on, who will herald  this deal as a break through but I see it as the deal that has been on the table for months.

    #91578

    Wigwam
    Participant

    If that turns out to be the case, he’s out of a job and the Conservative Party is finished.

    #91579

    Brydo

    Wigwam it’s because the “will of the people” is not clear enough that we are in this mess. The Brexit or remain question was to broad in reality to be a proper question. Team aim is clear no doubt but leaving the Eu that’s an entirely different question.

    Brexit means different things to different people.

    Take this thread as an example wigwam you want a hard Brexit, I thought fwippers was in the same boat but he says he would be happy with a “sensible deal” not sure what that is. Mike 700 would have accepted Mrs May’s deal.

    So here we have three Brexiteers all with different views of what Brexit means.

    How on earth was the result of the first referendum clear?

    #91581

    Wigwam
    Participant

    In brief, Brydo, there has never been any “deal” offered by the EU that allows us to leave.  If any was, then I’d be leaping for joy.

    #91582

    Brydo

    Another sham going on today “the queens speech” is another con job by BJ.

    No majority, no chance of getting the speech approved, just another party political ploy by BJ in the run up to another general election.

    The Queen has been used by this cad twice, has he no shame?

    #91585

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Barnier is playing on the weakness of Parliament caused by all those MPs elected on the basis of supporting leaving who have now reneged. The only way out is a not another divisive referendum but a GE so we can hold our MPs to account and hopefully alter the landscape so we can negotiate meaningfully from a position of strength.

    #91586

    Wigwam
    Participant

    You don’t rate Johnson, do you Brydo.

    #91587

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Isn’t the State Opening if Parliament just an all expenses paid shindig for the elite?  The speech could be put on YouTube.

    #91591

    Brydo

    The problem with a GE is that it is unlikely to change the numbers in parliament. It will change  a number of faces with the Tories shedding MPs  we would automatically recognise.

    At this moment in time we have only one topic to discuss and that is what a general election would be a vote on Brexit. However there is much more to running a country than sorting out Brexit.

    BJ has surrounded himself with the most right wing government, probably, ever. These are the people who would run the country for the next four years not just deal with Brexit.

    That is frightening.

    #91593

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Only if you believe the New Statesman and its ilk, Brydo.  By nature Johnson is socially liberal.

    #91594

    fwippers
    Participant

    The only thing all of  this posturing by MP’s has demonstrated is their arrogance and their contempt for democracy. It’s like we are living in 1819 or 1919 not 2019. We know the EU is undemocratic too. As a side story the operators of the sandbanks ferry could have sourced a replacement ferry but although it met German safety standards it did no comply with UK ones. Strange we have lots of different rules and regulations when the EU harps on about alignment and the single market.

    #91596

    Brydo

    BJ is not anything of substance by nature wigwam he is a chameleon. If the stories are to believed

    https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/16/secret-boris-johnson-column-favoured-uk-remaining-in-eu

    I do believe people can change their minds but to go from one extreme to the other is a bit of a concern.

    #91597

    POPS
    Moderator

    Another sham going on today “the queens speech” is another con job by BJ. No majority, no chance of getting the speech approved, just another party political ploy by BJ in the run up to another general election. The Queen has been used by this cad twice, has he no shame?

    I know this is contentious and I don’t want to stoke the flames any further, but I have to agree with Brydo’s post.

    The Queen has been used shamelessly by Boris Johnson to deliver a high profile “conservative election manifesto” speech. She has no option but to deliver a “Queen’s speech” and has had to read out a list of undeliverable promises made by a government with no majority to implement this wish list.

    Johnson and Cummings clearly have no respect for the tradition of monarchy.

    #91598

    fwippers
    Participant

    The problem is the opposition parties have declined  a GE or no confidence vote so by implication support BJ and his government

    #91601

    POPS
    Moderator

    If Johnson was an honourable man he would have got his wish for a general election. The reason why he is being made to wait until after October 31st is precisely because he can’t be trusted. He is a known liar and cheat who has proven that ‘truth’ is not a word that he either values or honours.

    In the interests of fair play I should add that very few MP’s will come out of this Brexit debacle with credit. Many are as culpable as Johnson.

    #91603

    Wigwam
    Participant

    Surely POPS, he was voted in by the Conservative membership to deliver Brexit.  MPs who don’t want Brexit know that a GE would give him the numbers to deliver it. Trust doesn’t come into it at this point. Although it may do soon…

    #91606

    POPS
    Moderator

    Let’s get rid of party politics.

    Why don’t we set up a new ‘imp’s’ party. ‘Independent members of parliament in small letters’ denoting no ego, and a desire to manage the UK’s affairs on a professional, fair and equitable basis.

    Government departments to be headed by top professionals in their particular ares of expertise, with oversight from Independent mp’s who are there to represent the interests of both the UK in total and their own individual constituents.

    A utopian view of how governance could work if we take the POLITICS out of it.

     

    #91608

    Brydo

    I can’t concentrate on politics just now guys

Viewing 25 replies - 51 through 75 (of 445 total)

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