Are Motability now forcing EVs where they aren’t suitable?

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #270697
    MFillingham
    Participant

      Don’t get me wrong, I think there are aspects of owning an EV which could be highly beneficial to disabled people.  To be able to drive for 80%+ of the time with only one pedal will make life much easier for those who struggle with lower limb issues.

      It is an unfortunate truth, though, that there are limitations too.  Far too many chargers are inaccessible for wheelchair users, cables are far too heavy and bulky for those who have issues with their arms and then there’s rolling up 10m of charging cable.

      Then there’s the housing caused problems, if you can’t park in one place, on your property, then you are going to struggle getting your car charged.  Motability have provided a charge card that discounts a small amount off a public charging company that has poor coverage and a poor reputation, that’s not enough to aid the disabled person , unable to work and afford expensive public charging.  With the perception of limited range (helped by the media hype) there’s a perceived requirement to charge until full, which can result in a cost up to £60 for a big battery on an expensive rapid.  Not the same as a quick fuel up for £10 or £20 when your budget is greatly limited.

      But the APs are favourable.  To be honest, they’re huge incentives to go electric and, if you’re considering it, then it’s a great bonus, however, the size of some APs for sizeable ICE or Hybrid vehicles does seem to push all customers towards the BEV solution.

      Who are Motability serving?  They’ll argue that they’re only passing on the prices that the manufacturers offer (partly true) and that the pressure from Government creates a pressure on the manufacturers to discount EVs.

      Should Motability be concerned with aiding research into charging solutions for those with parking near but not in their homes?  Should they be working to create an affordable public charging solution, if they’re content with guiding customers towards BEVs?   Maybe simply fighting for those unable to charge or operate an EV should be a target including ensuring affords and reliable ICE and Hybrid options until legislation prohibits such cars?

      What do you guys think?  Let’s keep this reasonable – the usual FUD found elsewhere will be reported and removed.

      I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
      I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.

      Mark

    Viewing 25 replies - 1 through 25 (of 29 total)
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    • #270700
      Mbirch92
      Participant

        All great points, and wheelchair/housing is what affects me most in getting an electric vehicle – My main issues regarding being a wheelchair user are on the other thread.

        I fear Motability won’t listen to what we have to say at the moment and just point to the £750 new vehicle payment.

        #270704
        Elliot
        Participant

          It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.

          #270708
          ScotT
          Spectator

            Don’t get me wrong, I think there are aspects of owning an EV which could be highly beneficial to disabled people. To be able to drive for 80%+ of the time with only one pedal will make life much easier for those who struggle with lower limb issues. It is an unfortunate truth, though, that there are limitations too. Far too many chargers are inaccessible for wheelchair users, cables are far too heavy and bulky for those who have issues with their arms and then there’s rolling up 10m of charging cable. Then there’s the housing caused problems, if you can’t park in one place, on your property, then you are going to struggle getting your car charged. Motability have provided a charge card that discounts a small amount off a public charging company that has poor coverage and a poor reputation, that’s not enough to aid the disabled person , unable to work and afford expensive public charging. With the perception of limited range (helped by the media hype) there’s a perceived requirement to charge until full, which can result in a cost up to £60 for a big battery on an expensive rapid. Not the same as a quick fuel up for £10 or £20 when your budget is greatly limited. But the APs are favourable. To be honest, they’re huge incentives to go electric and, if you’re considering it, then it’s a great bonus, however, the size of some APs for sizeable ICE or Hybrid vehicles does seem to push all customers towards the BEV solution. Who are Motability serving? They’ll argue that they’re only passing on the prices that the manufacturers offer (partly true) and that the pressure from Government creates a pressure on the manufacturers to discount EVs. Should Motability be concerned with aiding research into charging solutions for those with parking near but not in their homes? Should they be working to create an affordable public charging solution, if they’re content with guiding customers towards BEVs? Maybe simply fighting for those unable to charge or operate an EV should be a target including ensuring affords and reliable ICE and Hybrid options until legislation prohibits such cars? What do you guys think? Let’s keep this reasonable – the usual FUD found elsewhere will be reported and removed.

             

            No Motability, are just following the market, there are over 595 non BEV vehicles currently on the Motability system, the government have decided there will be no new ICE vehicles at some point and almost all vehicle manufactures are on target to meet this or have expedited this process.

            If there are challenges for people charging EV’s, then the only thing the public can do is voice this to the government to make EV charging and the infrastructure better.

            Ultimately as for the Motability scheme there will be a point where it will not be able to provide pure ICE vehicles and customers will have to adapt.

            The good thing is there is still a few years before this happens and technology advances at rapid rates there will come a time where the time taken to charge an EV will be the same as it would to fill petrol/diesel vehicle.

            We have already seen the adoption of Kerbo charge for some EV charging solutions, there is currently around 200 EV chargers being added ever week too, things are moving in the right direction and a lot can happen in a year, never mind the the years we have ahead before its only EV’s being supplied.

            It’s all a transition process unfortunately and we all have to adapt in some way. there will be a lot of niggles and obstacles to overcome as you have mentioned, but there will be a day where none of the current issues are issues.

            #270709
            ScotT
            Spectator

              It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.[/quote

              Even with high number of EV’s currently available in the scheme, there is still 595 non BEV vehicles available, there stages where there was less then 595 vehicles in total on the scheme.

              #270732
              kezo
              Participant

                Something is amiss this quarter, with the AP increase’s seen in most non BEV cars. For a fact this does not mirror the automotive market!

                Motabilty scheme:

                Hyundai Kona Ultimate BEV £999

                Hyundai Kona Ultimate 1.ol Turbo £2199

                New car market:

                Hyundai Kona Ultimate BEV £39,900

                Hyundai Kona Ultimate 1.0 Turbo £25,500

                The above example shows the opposite pricing structure and can be seen across all models of vehicles that are available as both a ICE and BEV.

                So it beg’s the question, is Motability in part funding the ultra low BEV AP’s off the back of ICE vehicles.

                This will only get worse each year, as manufacturers see an outlet, to avoid hefty fines through the ZEV mandate.

                 

                #270737
                moggy
                Participant

                  Who sets the Apps,  Motability or the Manufacturers?

                  #270740
                  kezo
                  Participant

                    Who sets the Apps, Motability or the Manufacturers?

                    Motability ultimatelyset the AP based on several factors.

                    #270741
                    Avatar photoUncJ
                    Participant

                      Something is amiss this quarter, with the AP increase’s seen in most non BEV cars. For a fact this does not mirror the automotive market! Motabilty scheme: Hyundai Kona Ultimate BEV £999 Hyundai Kona Ultimate 1.ol Turbo £2199 New car market: Hyundai Kona Ultimate BEV £39,900 Hyundai Kona Ultimate 1.0 Turbo £25,500 The above example shows the opposite pricing structure and can be seen across all models of vehicles that are available as both a ICE and BEV. So it beg’s the question, is Motability in part funding the ultra low BEV AP’s off the back of ICE vehicles. This will only get worse each year, as manufacturers see an outlet, to avoid hefty fines through the ZEV mandate.

                      I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there kezo. Also, Motability by doing this are helping the manufacturers reach their quotas too.

                      #270758
                      ScotT
                      Spectator

                        There is volume discounts available on most EV’s now, there is also a lot of private lease deals available to the public at super rates on EV’s and other incentives like low to 0% APR.

                         

                        Manufacturers are facing big competition from the Chinese EV’s and It’s going to soon be a buyers market again.

                        Also manufacturers are facing the new ZEV mandate next year so they are already trying to lure customers into EV’s, they need to set the ground for repeat customers.

                         

                        #270734
                        clappedout
                        Participant

                          Agree. Grappling with charging cables on a winter’s evening when transitioning to the front door with rollator is already a challenge enough. A&E beacons followed by months in care.

                          I have been very happy with an Allspace SEL, now in lease extension and previous Touran. I was very disappointed to see removal and/or steep price increases of Q2. No X trail Tenka- I need a powered tailgate – no Subaru, crazy prices on CRV, RAV4 etc. I don’t want a politically expedient bribe for an inappropriate BEV, Motability. Subsidies, company tax write offs and huge BIK incentives might keep the deluded eco zealot dream alive, but for the disabled the current distortions in the scheme are most unwelcome. The Allspace, built in Mexico, is on run out to be replaced by all new model soon. The top trim levels now gone, Life only with a£800 increase. No doubt paving the way for mega priced new Tiguan and Skoda Kodiaq version. Touran SEL was an excellent car. Now £3999 and sunroof an extra. Well over £5k for 3 years, yet an iD4 is free and probably needs to be.

                          #270764
                          NanasRob71
                          Participant

                            It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.[/quote Even with high number of EV’s currently available in the scheme, there is still 595 non BEV vehicles available, there stages where there was less then 595 vehicles in total on the scheme.

                            I suppose it depends what you mean by ‘severely disabled’.

                            Im a paraplegic, unable to walk at all with no core muscles. I can say that it’s been a game changer for me to pull up on my drive, plug in a charger and go inside – never visiting a petrol station is a breath of fresh air.

                            The OHME cable and plug is no heavier or difficult to handle than a garden hose, must easier than a petrol pump.

                            I do concede that I may think differently if I didn’t have a drive way.

                            #270765
                            MFillingham
                            Participant

                              It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.[/quote Even with high number of EV’s currently available in the scheme, there is still 595 non BEV vehicles available, there stages where there was less then 595 vehicles in total on the scheme.

                              I suppose it depends what you mean by ‘severely disabled’. Im a paraplegic, unable to walk at all with no core muscles. I can say that it’s been a game changer for me to pull up on my drive, plug in a charger and go inside – never visiting a petrol station is a breath of fresh air. The OHME cable and plug is no heavier or difficult to handle than a garden hose, must easier than a petrol pump. I do concede that I may think differently if I didn’t have a drive way.

                               

                              Im happy it’s working for you, and the ability to plug in then go indoors and forget the car is amazing, but have you had to charge out in the wild?  Rapid cables are big chunks of copper and cooling wrapped in heavy rubber.  I’m not saying it’s impossible but I’d be amazed if they weren’t a challenge.

                              I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
                              I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.

                              Mark

                              #270770
                              Glos Guy
                              Participant

                                @clappedout I don’t know if you are aware, but the Tiguan Allspace is being discontinued. The new Tiguan will only be available in standard form. An all new larger SUV is going to effectively replace the Allspace, but won’t be launched in the U.K.

                                #270771
                                NanasRob71
                                Participant

                                  It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.[/quote Even with high number of EV’s currently available in the scheme, there is still 595 non BEV vehicles available, there stages where there was less then 595 vehicles in total on the scheme.

                                  I suppose it depends what you mean by ‘severely disabled’. Im a paraplegic, unable to walk at all with no core muscles. I can say that it’s been a game changer for me to pull up on my drive, plug in a charger and go inside – never visiting a petrol station is a breath of fresh air. The OHME cable and plug is no heavier or difficult to handle than a garden hose, must easier than a petrol pump. I do concede that I may think differently if I didn’t have a drive way.

                                  Im happy it’s working for you, and the ability to plug in then go indoors and forget the car is amazing, but have you had to charge out in the wild? Rapid cables are big chunks of copper and cooling wrapped in heavy rubber. I’m not saying it’s impossible but I’d be amazed if they weren’t a challenge.

                                  I was going to do a longer reply to your original question, but will continue!

                                  Yes, of course over the three years I’ve had to use many rapid chargers. We go fro Surrey to Northumberland a few times a year with no destination charging, so we have to use rapids.

                                  Rapids are a mixed bag. Some are as easy as petrol pumps, some are harder, some, like IONITY are much easier as they have a helper cable at the top.

                                  I have found that people at the rapid charging areas are very friendly and I’ve had zero issues asking someone to swipe my card and plug me in.

                                  The big issue is accessibility, some are a disaster for wheelchair users, but I know these are changing.

                                  On balance, most of my charging is at home, so for the 90% of time my charging is as simple as it can be and I’ll happily take that compared with the hassle petrol stations have been over the years. Getting spilled diesel fuel on my wheelchair tyres is really not pleasant!

                                  Nothing will ever be as simple for us disabled people, but plugging in at home has been an amazing experience.

                                  • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by NanasRob71.
                                  #270779
                                  bigmac7288
                                  Participant

                                    It’s a terrible situation for those severely disabled or unable to charge at home. The choice of suitable ICE vehicles gets less almost daily and I do wonder what the answer will be for these people. Car manufacturers are hardly likely to design disability friendly vehicles.[/quote Even with high number of EV’s currently available in the scheme, there is still 595 non BEV vehicles available, there stages where there was less then 595 vehicles in total on the scheme.

                                    I suppose it depends what you mean by ‘severely disabled’. Im a paraplegic, unable to walk at all with no core muscles. I can say that it’s been a game changer for me to pull up on my drive, plug in a charger and go inside – never visiting a petrol station is a breath of fresh air. The OHME cable and plug is no heavier or difficult to handle than a garden hose, must easier than a petrol pump. I do concede that I may think differently if I didn’t have a drive way.

                                    Im a a Amputee lost my legs from Knee down and and lost both of my arms from just below the shoulder thanks to the war on terrorism, Due to the damage to my left shoulder I can only use one prosthetic split hook, I would not be able to charge or even plug coil up a EV charger split hooks are not great at all you are very limited also at the petrol station the lovley men and woman who work there top my car up for me when I need it filled.

                                    also Iv put 60k on my car just now as I need to travel to south of england every month from North east to see specialist to do with my other health conditions caused by the governments wars.

                                    so when it comes to it when mobility push people like me out to be in line with the government who dont really care about anyone then ai will just leave the Scheme simple as that. The scheme is changing that there not taking every disabled person ability into consideration there only looking for profit and the more people buy the fancy paints, subwoofers, and all the cool addons these people are apart from the problems aswell.

                                    #270781
                                    clappedout
                                    Participant

                                      Thanks Glos Guy. There is a China only model which might be  updated for EU. Enyon? I would like a new Kodiaq when launched but looking at EU prices, won’t be cheap and looks like Skoda is going down the price- gouging subscription model that will be bad news for additions to AP, imho. I am almost tempted by a run out old model Kodiaq as still has proper climate knobs unlike current Allspace etc. not many offerings do large boots, powered tailgate, roof rails, Kessy easy entry, IQ lights plus ideal seat height. I checked out the Enyaq but unsuitable even though we have a drive plus power available. My wife hates the idea of being trapped in a vehicle that can violently and spontaneously combust in a minor accident with our grandkids in the back. Vw is being sued in Germany by the ship owners and insurers following the loss mid Atlantic with 4000 cars bound for the USA.  Allegedly started by a battery fire. Over 1000 Porsche inc many Taycans, Audis Bentley and Lamborghinis. Big bill. Another car ship off Rotterdam, the Luton car park (1500) and recent Gatwick car park, – allegedly a Tesla – all covered up and highly disingenuous reporting. Lithium ion batteries were banned from cargo on passenger aircraft a long time ago and have since downed Cargo 747s. E bikes have burned down houses. I’m not a fan and being physically unable to manage unwieldy cables avoids conflicts with the missus who hates the idea of any EV compromise. I was lucky to obtain a lease extension before the rule change. The clowns who set targets for car producers are incapable of joined up thinking, sadly, and has resulted in polarised Motability pricing.

                                      Shell do two apps for disabled. One can prebook assistance and the other to pay without exiting the car. Painless.

                                      #270783
                                      Rene
                                      Participant

                                        Who sets the Apps, Motability or the Manufacturers?

                                        Motability ultimatelyset the AP based on several factors.

                                        Misleading at best.

                                        Of course it’s “ultimately” set by Motability, they decide whether or not to take an offer. The reality is, the actual deciding factors are resale value as well as the conditions at which they can get the car.

                                        In case of EVs, it’s the one surefire way for manufacturers to reach their quotas – which is why they offer them at favourable conditions to fleet operators.

                                        Unlike ICE cars, car manufacturers can and do sell EVs at a loss. To put differently: 22% of new car sales in the UK in 2024 have to be EV, rising to 28% next year. If a manufacturer exceeds that target, they can either bank an allowance in quota or trade the excess quota with manufacturers who didn’t meet the target (bit like carbon trade).

                                        If they fall short, on the other hand, they’ll pay a £15.000 (15k) fine for every single non-EV car sold over the allowance. I don’t think i need to explain why a car manufacturer isn’t particularly keen to pay a 15 grand fine on a 25 grand car – so you bet your chops that manufacturers push EVs to favourable conditions, because even if they sell more than they have to, they can either sell the credit or save some for a rainy day/year (since the quota rises steeply annually).

                                        To further point out the obvious, even if they sell an EV at a loss, they still might break even (or make profit) from the resulting credit, as well as the averted fine for that car. So even if they lose 10 grand on an EV, they still save 5 grand over the fine plus whatever the credit goes for between manufacturers (which won’t be a tenner, considering that each single credit is basically worth a 15k fine – my guess would be maybe around 1500 to 2000 quid per credit).

                                        So, as i mentioned before, no. Motability isn’t “setting these AP”, it’s the result of taking the best offers they can get. To put vice versa, a removal of all BEVs tomorrow would not result in cheaper APs for ICE cars. They’ll stay the same.

                                        Prior: SEAT Ateca Xcellence Lux 1.5 TSI DSG MY19
                                        Current: VW Golf GTE PHEV DSG MY23

                                        #270785
                                        MFillingham
                                        Participant

                                          A brief summary of what the filters are showing:

                                          Boot size     EV     Hybrid     ICE

                                          1-2               4           3                10

                                          2-3            11          12                37

                                          3-4            21          15                61

                                          4-5           17           12                29

                                          5+             3             5                11

                                           

                                          This is cars only different models are not counted (so 1 astra hatch, estate but not trim levels)

                                          This is a quick search through the filters.  The results are subject to the accuracy or lack of of the numbers reported by the filter.  I’ve neither the time nor inclination to go through every single car for a full list.

                                          This does not reflect the pricing of the cars, so doesn’t currently show the push in pricing but I refer you to my previous statement about time and inclination…

                                           


                                          @NanasRob71
                                          Thank you for the fuller reply.  I’m lucky in as much as all limbs kind of work, so I have to take what those few who have limited limb capabilities which has, to date, been rather a mixed bag.  Lots of complaints about weight of cables and how stiff they can be, a few complaining about access to the charger and nobody really giving a positive view (such a shock for the internet, I know).  I agree, there is usually a bunch of people hanging around the busier charging places and someone will pretty much always help out someone they see struggling, whether it’s physically or just working out what they’re doing.

                                           

                                          I think Motability could well take responsibility for the future provision for vehicles for the disabled community.  After 2030,35 or whenever the next government decide it’ll be, there won’t be ICE sold new, which means the scheme will be Hybrid or EV for a limited time, then BEV only.  If they haven’t thought about charging, access to chargers and the costs for disabled people as well as encouraged those pioneering home charging solutions for those who don’t fit into the luxury of a drive, then there’s going to be a massive problem.  In time terms,  this could rather quickly return to 6 years if Labour decide to reinstate the 2030 target or it’ll remain at 11 currently. Neither are very long in terms of identifying a problem and finding a solution, testing it, marketing it and settling on a number that can work, either in isolation or as a combination.  The gully @Phaedra has works well, I’ve also seen a swinging arm that can be either swung or folded out to support the cable above head height with the cable then dropping alongside the car and away from pedestrians.  Whatever the solutions are, even if it’s a charger in every lamp post, then someone needs to find some urgency in providing that solution at a cost that isn’t prohibitive.

                                           

                                          This shows that there are still more ICE than alternative fuelled cars but I did notice a dramatic lack of diesels.

                                          I'm Autistic, if I say something you find offensive, please let me know, I can guarantee it was unintentional.
                                          I'll try to give my honest opinion but am always open to learning.

                                          Mark

                                          #270789
                                          clappedout
                                          Participant

                                            Hi Big Mac,

                                            sorry posts crossed and well said. Every sympathy for your terrible injuries inflicted in the line of duty. I have a late onset muscular atrophy and neuro disease that affects every part of the body but not even close to your injuries. I used to regularly fly over Afghanistan in the early years of the war, including camp Bastion, and observing the terrain wondered how on earth are our guys down there being sent on patrol in snatch land rovers. Madness. Thank you for your service, as they say stateside and let’s hope for a more equitable approach to ICE vehicles in the future.

                                            #270792
                                            Mbirch92
                                            Participant

                                              I wonder if what we’re seeing right now will cause a complete flip in 3/4 years when Motab EVs flood the market.

                                              Buyers market where EVs can be found cheap, and dealers struggling to hit their targets on new Combustion and Hybrids.

                                              #270811
                                              kj35
                                              Participant

                                                I think we are guinea pigs for wider society. A government wholly intent on BEV in the 2030s needs to iron out all the wrinkles that the change to electric presents. What better way than its own little subsided scheme with a bunch of sitting ducks who haven’t much choice if they want to keep the heavily reduced car. These are the legs for disabled people, our lifelines and we are being experimented on.

                                                #270814
                                                DumfriesDik
                                                Participant

                                                  It’s not Motability, it’s the Climate Emergency forcing the change. You may have seen it on the news?

                                                  So many people in one thread who have overcome adversity and getting on with their lives, floored by a charge cable. Amazing.

                                                  VW ID3 Max is my DD

                                                  #270821
                                                  kezo
                                                  Participant

                                                    It’s not Motability, it’s the Climate Emergency forcing the change. You may have seen it on the news? So many people in one thread who have overcome adversity and getting on with their lives, floored by a charge cable. Amazing.

                                                    You mean the interglacial period 🙂

                                                     

                                                    #270851
                                                    clappedout
                                                    Participant

                                                      By news I guess you watch the British Brainwashing Corp or Sky? I have experienced the middle of Beijings 3 ring roads and noted that they are still building coal fired power stations to charge their EVs, bikes and scooters. As are India, some EU countries and we import wood chips transported from the Pacific coast North America on diesel powered bulk carries to burn in the Drax power station. Sustainably, of course. Rain forests, the lungs  of the planet, are still being decimated to supply avaricious humans. When I was born, the global population was estimated 2.65 billion. Now trebled to 8 bn. Therein lies the problem that nobody talks about. All want a fridge, heating or cooling and transport. If the climate warming/ crisis/catastrophe/ emergency is to be solved before the next ice age, then a co ordinated global effort is required and not just from minor factors in the hand-wringing west.
                                                      In the short term, a political, arbitrarily created quota system should not distort the affordability of suitable transport for the genuinely disabled. imho.

                                                      #270881
                                                      vinalspin
                                                      Participant

                                                        Since when was it mandated that we must have only BEV’s by 2035? I thought it was zero emission vehicles and not battery powered only?

                                                        Am I missing something or has every other avenue to zero emissions been ruled out already?

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